Sthil MS 461 vs Stihl MS 660 Dyno tested

[shwinecat]

This dyno down the road or very near future is really going to take porting, tuning and the ability for the guys trying to get more out of saws to the next level. Once the dyno is dialed in and can be reproduced the tuners like Mastermind, Treemonkey, Brad and all the rest will need to have one. Then porting will really go to the next level.

The local race engine builder here in Town (Sturdy Race Engines) got their dyno 10 to 12 years ago. The shop manager stated when they first got the dyno he had reservations. Take a 10 to 20 thousand dollar motor and push it to the limits. It can be very spendy if you push it to far. He has stated flat out since the dyno the motors they put out are soooooooo!!! much better. It's not only gives them proof what direction works better but it almost eliminates the outside variables. Meaning they clear up a lot of the ignition, carb and other varibles outside of the main motor build. He hardly ever has a motor leave the shop that is not put on the dyno. They usually test with their carb, ignition and other equipment first because they know it works and then the engine owners bring their stuff in to be put on the motor. The owner gets the dyno print out from each test run on the motor so they know exactly what the motor is putting out.

This all takes time and you cannot do it for free. Time is money. The shop has found their sales has increased do to the dyno. They sell more carbs, ignition, intake, valves... you get the picture. They charge $100.00 to dyno the motor. Less than 10% of the build. I did not mean to side track this thread I am just so happy we are moving this direction. The GTG are going to be awesome in the future.

 

[MCW]

I know the numbers may be similar as far as torque goes but I've spoken to two full time firewood cutters recently that have been told by Stihl dealers that the 461 will keep up with their 660's. They have both then bought 461's and been very disappointed. Talking stock saws here as well. Their 461's certainly do the job, but both guys have mentioned that the 660's just do everything easier. Apart from their balance and fuel consumption I'm a secret fan of the 660's.

Go cut a <2 foot hardwood log then, you will never be sadder...

Don't get me wrong, i love my 390 but there is no way i could sit here and say it is better than a 660 in big hard wood and keep a straight face.

A 660 will certainly out torque a 390XP but the isn't much in it. Also by the time you've filled up your fuel guzzling 660 the 390 will be well in front
(Heh heh. I've owned both as well).

 

[IEL]

Are there complete plans/diagrams of this dyno out there? I would love to put one together.
See just how much torque some of the classic muscle saws have. Pioneer p series, 5 cube cart Mcculloch, PM canadien 270, big homelite gear drives, super ez, ect

The leaf blower dyno sounds interesting, as I have said several times, I have an echo pb200 with a muffler mod that is a real monster.

If I do get one together, it would be open for use by any AS member who feels like a visit. I know one member in my town who might have some fun with it.... LOL

 

[porsche965]

I'm really expecting the 661 to be all about torque through and through. This dyno couldn't have come out at a better time. Thanks for going through the trouble to make one!

 

[chadihman]

Are there complete plans/diagrams of this dyno out there? I would love to put one together.
See just how much torque some of the classic muscle saws have. Pioneer p series, 5 cube cart Mcculloch, PM canadien 270, big homelite gear drives, super ez, ect

The leaf blower dyno sounds interesting, as I have said several times, I have an echo pb200 with a muffler mod that is a real monster.

If I do get one together, it would be open for use by any AS member who feels like a visit. I know one member in my town who might have some fun with it.... LOL

Here's the blueprint

Heres all the info you need to build onehttp://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/230512.htmhttp://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/236144.htmhttp://www.arboristsite.com/chainsaw/240223.htm
Happy reading:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[IEL]

I think I will put one together. I could likely scrounge most of the parts from the shop and sheds of the museum I work at.
How is the arm going to the load cell connected to the pump? (Im on a phone and wont be able to easily do all that reading until tomorrow)

 

[chadihman]

I think I will put one together. I could likely scrounge most of the parts from the shop and sheds of the museum I work at.
How is the arm going to the load cell connected to the pump? (Im on a phone and wont be able to easily do all that reading until tomorrow)

Look at the second link I posted. It has lots of pictures.

 

[LegDeLimber]

I think I will put one together. I could likely scrounge most of the parts from the shop and sheds of the museum I work at.

Major bonus points IF you can figure a way to build a museum display version while you're at it.
kinda hard to imagine a running saw in a cage or something...
But three's been plenty of bicycle and hand crank stuff done already.

there was a bicycle type blower rigged to a wireframe vertical tube that had recirculate-able ball in it.
Object was to try pedaling fast enough to pump the ball over the top and see how much energy it took.
Would always watch people get on it and work up and up, never get the ball over.
I used to blast the ball out of the top of the tube by simply hammering the pedals for
about 5~6 revs.
Don't know why exactly, but it was the first thing that came to mind and I just tried it.
something just sorta rolled in my brain about air flow patterns and inertia and spreading
and so on etc...
lacking a formal education often makes it tough to explain some things
and working alone means you don't develop the needed vocabulary either.
(and that may be evident in my missives around here)

 

[7sleeper]

Hey chadihman,

I was wondering, since you intend to put a larger hydro pump on your setup, would it be bad for testing smaller saws? I don't know. But I believe it would be a simple setup then to run two pumps in paralell with shut off valves. So you could use the pump you just need?!

Just a thought by an interested reader.

7

 

[dozerdan]

Dozerdan has a modded (ported) blower. I forget which brand it is....but i definately saw it.:hmm3grin2orange:

The blower is just a cheap home owner Poulan. I picked up two at a yard sale for 7 dollars and made one out of the two. It is ported and it runs an 024 carb. Next time your here I will let you run it and my Stihl FS85 trimmer, ported with an 026 carb.

Later
Dan

 

[IEL]

Major bonus points IF you can figure a way to build a museum display version while you're at it.
kinda hard to imagine a running saw in a cage or something...
But three's been plenty of bicycle and hand crank stuff done already.

there was a bicycle type blower rigged to a wireframe vertical tube that had recirculate-able ball in it.
Object was to try pedaling fast enough to pump the ball over the top and see how much energy it took.
Would always watch people get on it and work up and up, never get the ball over.
I used to blast the ball out of the top of the tube by simply hammering the pedals for
about 5~6 revs.
Don't know why exactly, but it was the first thing that came to mind and I just tried it.
something just sorta rolled in my brain about air flow patterns and inertia and spreading
and so on etc...
lacking a formal education often makes it tough to explain some things
and working alone means you don't develop the needed vocabulary either.
(and that may be evident in my missives around here)

This place is an outdoor farming museum. I could easily have hot saw races durring events if I wanted to... LOL
Hey that gives me an idea for the fall fair.... LOL

 

[Nitroman]

This dyno down the road or very near future is really going to take porting, tuning and the ability for the guys trying to get more out of saws to the next level. Once the dyno is dialed in and can be reproduced the tuners like Mastermind, Treemonkey, Brad and all the rest will need to have one. Then porting will really go to the next level.

The local race engine builder here in Town (Sturdy Race Engines) got their dyno 10 to 12 years ago. The shop manager stated when they first got the dyno he had reservations. Take a 10 to 20 thousand dollar motor and push it to the limits. It can be very spendy if you push it to far. He has stated flat out since the dyno the motors they put out are soooooooo!!! much better. It's not only gives them proof what direction works better but it almost eliminates the outside variables. Meaning they clear up a lot of the ignition, carb and other varibles outside of the main motor build. He hardly ever has a motor leave the shop that is not put on the dyno. They usually test with their carb, ignition and other equipment first because they know it works and then the engine owners bring their stuff in to be put on the motor. The owner gets the dyno print out from each test run on the motor so they know exactly what the motor is putting out.

This all takes time and you cannot do it for free. Time is money. The shop has found their sales has increased do to the dyno. They sell more carbs, ignition, intake, valves... you get the picture. They charge $100.00 to dyno the motor. Less than 10% of the build. I did not mean to side track this thread I am just so happy we are moving this direction. The GTG are going to be awesome in the future.

Back a few years ago when I had suggested building a dyno just for this purpose and said essentially the same thing about engine refinement, I was portrayed as an idiot by the prima donna builders (gone now thank goodness), and thier sycophants. Good this is happening now.

 

[Outlaw5.0]

The dynamometer is the most valuable tool for research and development work. Without data you have no idea what works and does not work, or why it works or does not work. Yes I run a dyno for a living, just answering that question before it's asked.

 

[chadihman]

I think ported chainsaws are going to be taken to a new level especially if some well known saw builders get a dyno. I'm not sure what the porters think about this dyno cause it was only Randy that talked about owning this one. I'd be interested in building a few more if anyone interested.

 

[shwinecat]

I think ported chainsaws are going to be taken to a new level especially if some well known saw builders get a dyno. I'm not sure what the porters think about this dyno cause it was only Randy that talked about owning this one. I'd be interested in building a few more if anyone interested.

Now that is stepping up to the plate. Thanks for your efforts and using your ability to take things to the next level.

 

[chadihman]

Now that is stepping up to the plate. Thanks for your efforts and using your ability to take things to the next level.

Thanks! I enjoy testing and sharing the results. I hope I'm not making any saw builders angry. Randy has been quiet on my posts lately. Please let me know if what I'm posting is wrong.

 

[Hill billy]

Chadihman I think what you are trying to do is get on testing these saw . But on the other hand I think your in way over your head you posted numbers on here that are bs. I thought this page was for good information . A guy who has a tractor on his signature should know how a dyno works. If you can put a good pull on it you can test it . I also love it when people say a 461 will out cut a 660 in wood up to 24" this to is just bs . If you really want to see what your 461 is mad though a bigger pin sprocket on both of them and see what happens pretty sure you won't be bragging on your 461 for long . All I'm trying to say is the 660 is the 461 bigger brother but with that being said I don't think stihl had planned on people running a 660 with a 20" bar cutting small rounds .

 

[splitpost]

Probbly didnt expect people to run 25" bars on 880's either but thats how they come here standard from stihl

 

[CR888]

l think it suits the builders just fine that chainsaw dynos are only found at two places, masdens & chadihman's. l think what has been achieved by chadihman in his backyard is great and while the builders may initially be scared of the dyno...it's really their best friend if they are truly serious about increasing hp in saws. lt varifies what mods are really doing. Alot of motorcross riders l used to ride with would think that their AM pipe was making them go faster and believed they could definately notice the difference but the true facts are us mortals are quite hopeless at measuring gains and often a noisier pipe made riders 'feel' that they were going faster but the stopwatch never lies and often a decrease in power combined with an increase in sound fooled many o rider. l'm running 2 get my flame suit now!lol

 

[Moparmyway]

But on the other hand I think your in way over your head you posted numbers on here that are bs. I thought this page was for good information . A guy who has a tractor on his signature should know how a dyno works.

Holy cow !!!!!!!!
A new dude calling out a well respected, proven genius. What Chadihman has done was basically considered impossible by most. He did it well, and made it look easy while he did it. The only bs I see is what youre throwing ......................for cryingoutloud ............... 3 posts and just joined Saturday. YOU have alot to learn