2000ssm6
Stihl User
Most ported saws will give a similar sized stock saw a "run". Not quite apples to apples.
5100 just burned up
- Thread starter Boike
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Most ported saws will give a similar sized stock saw a "run". Not quite apples to apples.
Trigger Man
Addicted to ArboristSite
We keep hearing this as if it's fact, maybe it is but does anyone know for sure:dunno: There's many 5100s out there that have worked hard for several years now and have not failed.....Mine is 4 years old now and still runs strong as ever!
Even Spike said of the ones he sold and tuned "they are all still running" but we still keep hearing about some design flaw in the 5100 that makes it burn up.
As if saw manufactures never update models & numbers to improve upon the original design. If the 5100 had some serious design flaw that made them burn up, they'd all do it.
Seems more like speculation and rumor than anything else.....The flaw of the 5100 is being a hot rod right out of the box, making it unforgiving when not tuned correctly....IMO
Well then explain why Dolmar would design exactly the same saw, except for the difference in how the flywheel pushes air over the cylinder, and a cat muffler which is now available on the 5100. I'm sure there's not that many customers out there in saw land sitting around the table wishing they had a saw similar to 5100 but with better air cooling characteristics. I'll bet when the 5105 gets to be around for a couple of years(2) you will see them axe the 5100 just because of the failure rate.
Oh, and yes props to the 5100's that are still out there cutting wood, due to dealers setting them up correctly.
fredmc
Addicted to ArboristSite
Most ported saws will give a similar sized stock saw a "run". Not quite apples to apples.
yeah I know... just being a jerk.
roncoinc
Official Stihl Disser
Well then explain why Dolmar would design exactly the same saw, except for the difference in how the flywheel pushes air over the cylinder, and a cat muffler which is now available on the 5100. I'm sure there's not that many customers out there in saw land sitting around the table wishing they had a saw similar to 5100 but with better air cooling characteristics. I'll bet when the 5105 gets to be around for a couple of years(2) you will see them axe the 5100 just because of the failure rate.
Oh, and yes props to the 5100's that are still out there cutting wood, due to dealers setting them up correctly.
Now THATS completely confusing...
in my admited limited experiance i have found that the "cat" actually makes the saw run hotter..
i just eliminated the "cat" out of a small husky and it runs "much" cooler now.
so i wonder why they would make an engine run hotter to supposedly fix a problem ??
the flywheel pushing air ,isnt that a now common thing to help feed the airfilter with less big nasty stuff getting sucked in ??
after a new model of the same saw is out why would a company NOT drop the old model ?? thats the way it works,new model replaces old model ..
THALL10326
The Champ
Wow, this thread won't seem to die. Since its rolling along I'll toss a post of truth in it and maybe it will be put to bed.
I sat today and actually listened to all this talk about lean saws from someone who actually knew what they were talking about. Yes one of the main guys from Stihl covered fast saws out the box, lean running conditions and new PhaseIII Epa emissions.
From the big horses mouth ALL 2cycle power equipment sold in the USA today is running leaner than ever. This includes all makes. Why, to meet Epa standards. They aren't running leaner than they need to be, only lean enough to pass Epa. This notion these 5100's are leaner than everyone else just isn't true. The exhaust is only allowed to emitt so much pollution and no more. They too are running just lean enough to meet Epa, not a hair more. The assumtion the 5100 isn't surviving as well as the rest might be a true statement but they aren't running any leaner than any other make.
Stihl has raised their rpm levels for most all of thier saws to 14,000 rpms, the 880 being an exception. The motors have been slightly altered with different port timing, carb changes for fuel delivery all in the name of meeting Epa standards.
Stihl has a minus/plus range of 1000 rpms meaning some saws may be hitting well over 14 grand and still be considered witihn the rpm range of the saw.
He went on to say this. If by chance we get a saw out the box that will not idle correctly, will not rev up correctly without richening it don't sell it, return it to them and sell the customer another saw. They do not want anymore limit caps pulled to richen up a saw. The Epa testing is done at WOT, not idle, not during rev up, but WOT. That limit cap is already set at the richest setting the saw can emitt pollution allowed by Epa. To remove it and richen the saw breaks federal law as of 1/1/10. The fine could be as high as $37,500 if caught. This puts the dealer in the clear should the saw fail due to extreme rpms. By law the dealer is no longer allowed to richen up a saw out the box because that saw is already emitting what the Epa will allow. In other words by law its already set as rich as it can be by law.
Now the clincher. As I said before there is a certain amount of what is called acceptable failure. With these new rules in play they know there will be more failures and they understand this. He made clear its much more important now to educate the customer. Dull chains, bad fuel, not knowing how to operate a saw properly is now going to kill more saws than ever before. The older and slower saws would survive these things, the new ones will be more accpetable to failure because of these things. So today the dealers new job is to educate the customer all the ifs and whys to maintaining his fuel, his chains and using some sense when running a saw. The new saws of today aren't nearly as forgiving as the older ones due to new Epa regulations.
So taking in everything he said its obvious they, meaning all makes, are running leaner than ever before because they have to. The makers have no choice in the matter if they want to sell their products in the USA. Me I get a break, no more pulling caps but spending more time to explain how critical the customer knows everything he needs to know about a product that is now very unforgiving compared to days past. I look forward to replacing a few more cylinders and pistons, hell I enjoy it. Just hate the frown I see when they walk in but love that smile when I say don't worry about it, its covered under warranty..
I sat today and actually listened to all this talk about lean saws from someone who actually knew what they were talking about. Yes one of the main guys from Stihl covered fast saws out the box, lean running conditions and new PhaseIII Epa emissions.
From the big horses mouth ALL 2cycle power equipment sold in the USA today is running leaner than ever. This includes all makes. Why, to meet Epa standards. They aren't running leaner than they need to be, only lean enough to pass Epa. This notion these 5100's are leaner than everyone else just isn't true. The exhaust is only allowed to emitt so much pollution and no more. They too are running just lean enough to meet Epa, not a hair more. The assumtion the 5100 isn't surviving as well as the rest might be a true statement but they aren't running any leaner than any other make.
Stihl has raised their rpm levels for most all of thier saws to 14,000 rpms, the 880 being an exception. The motors have been slightly altered with different port timing, carb changes for fuel delivery all in the name of meeting Epa standards.
Stihl has a minus/plus range of 1000 rpms meaning some saws may be hitting well over 14 grand and still be considered witihn the rpm range of the saw.
He went on to say this. If by chance we get a saw out the box that will not idle correctly, will not rev up correctly without richening it don't sell it, return it to them and sell the customer another saw. They do not want anymore limit caps pulled to richen up a saw. The Epa testing is done at WOT, not idle, not during rev up, but WOT. That limit cap is already set at the richest setting the saw can emitt pollution allowed by Epa. To remove it and richen the saw breaks federal law as of 1/1/10. The fine could be as high as $37,500 if caught. This puts the dealer in the clear should the saw fail due to extreme rpms. By law the dealer is no longer allowed to richen up a saw out the box because that saw is already emitting what the Epa will allow. In other words by law its already set as rich as it can be by law.
Now the clincher. As I said before there is a certain amount of what is called acceptable failure. With these new rules in play they know there will be more failures and they understand this. He made clear its much more important now to educate the customer. Dull chains, bad fuel, not knowing how to operate a saw properly is now going to kill more saws than ever before. The older and slower saws would survive these things, the new ones will be more accpetable to failure because of these things. So today the dealers new job is to educate the customer all the ifs and whys to maintaining his fuel, his chains and using some sense when running a saw. The new saws of today aren't nearly as forgiving as the older ones due to new Epa regulations.
So taking in everything he said its obvious they, meaning all makes, are running leaner than ever before because they have to. The makers have no choice in the matter if they want to sell their products in the USA. Me I get a break, no more pulling caps but spending more time to explain how critical the customer knows everything he needs to know about a product that is now very unforgiving compared to days past. I look forward to replacing a few more cylinders and pistons, hell I enjoy it. Just hate the frown I see when they walk in but love that smile when I say don't worry about it, its covered under warranty..
That's some good information there THALL. Thanks.
Trigger Man
Addicted to ArboristSite
No I would say thats why they made the cooling better to compensate for the cat muff. From what I understand the opened up fly wheel area was'nt for the air filtration.
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Trigger Man
Addicted to ArboristSite
That is good info Tommie, but it sucks.
THALL10326
The Champ
I liked what he told us. I don't have to fool with anymore dayumm high speed limit caps. If you ever noticed, on Stihls, the high speed limit cap on every single new saw will not turn to the left, or richer side. They are already set as rich as the Epa will allow.
Now I get to hammer my buyer of what all he should and shouldn't do and why. I always did that anyway but now I need to stress it even more, the trade off, I don't have to pull that dayumm cap anymore. I dig it,
THALL10326
The Champ
Whats the old saying, we fought the law and the law won, well Epa won so screw it, I have no choice but follow the law. Yes it sucks but who will pay the fine, I'm not going flirt with that kind of money at stake, no way...
Trigger Man
Addicted to ArboristSite
I liked what he told us. I don't have to fool with anymore dayumm high speed limit caps. If you ever noticed, on Stihls, the high speed limit cap on every single new saw will not turn to the left, or richer side. They are already set as rich as the Epa will allow.
Now I get to hammer my buyer of what all he should and shouldn't do and why. I always did that anyway but now I need to stress it even more, the trade off, I don't have to pull that dayumm cap anymore. I dig it,
Tom, do you think the caps will still be removable or will they be locked out?
Trigger Man
Addicted to ArboristSite
No I don't blame you one bit, It just looks like the adjustable carb is coming to an end.
THALL10326
The Champ
I think its heading that way. On the new 362 getting the high speed cap off is a real b-tch. They got it in there in such a way you wanna toss the saw off the table fighting to get it out. It would not surprize me as time goes on the caps are made metal are welded in there....
Trigger Man
Addicted to ArboristSite
That's what I was thinking, if you try to pull the caps the jets will be screwed.(no punn ment)
THALL10326
The Champ
Hey Wanab where you been, I see you been talking some smack in here,haha
Have been over to see 2000K lately. He's got a alittle surprize for ya in the name of Stihl MS260. You'd be wise to stay home at his next GTG, trust me,LOL
Trigger Man
Addicted to ArboristSite
What did the guy say you should do if a carb goes bad, how do you readjust? with the EPA and all watching over?
Trigger Man
Addicted to ArboristSite
Stock up boys the EPA police are coming! Don't go to Tommies he won't pull the caps!LOL
ha, Master THALL,
didnt you say that last time? lol!
i see your trying to rally the troops, GG!
:greenchainsaw:
