A coversation with the Sheriff

[teatersroad]

So..is it much different than having to prove that the truck you are driving is your truck, or that you have a legal right to use it?

 

[slowp]

Y'all might want to look at it this way.

The Feds can hire an army of contracted security folks to continiously monitor the forrests, or nab the thieves at the choke points and deter the activity.

The first choke point is on the roads.

The second is at the Mills.

After the Mill, it's kinda tough to determine the wood was swiped so it's gotta be the roads and Mills.

Mills are supposed to keep records and such, but backyard mills are a reality so it's back to the Roads.

I disagree completely with "Transporting wood" as a legal justification for disrupting a citizens right to free journey though, as there are 100 other things that would be more appropriate going on that could be used."Unsecure load", obstructed Lisc. plate(Trailer hitch/mud will do most times), crossing fog line, etc.

Y'all also forget that most of the roads out in that corner of the planet are Federal, and come with thier own baggage that would be deemed blatently unconstitutional on State and local roadways.
Us folks not surrounded by and supported by the Fed. just ain't used to such things, or thinking with that in mind.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote

For logs coming off the Forest Service, there are different requirements in different areas. In Oregon and Washington, if the logs are of any size, both ends must be branded (whacked hard with a hammer with a registered brand on it) and have yellow paint on the ends. The loads also get a ticket on them, and that ticket book is checked out by only people who have been designated, in writing, by the timber sale purchaser. Unused books are turned back in. The ticket books are kept locked up, and only certain people have keys. It makes it hard to forge tickets, although books have been stolen. I'm the first line of defense. I get to annoy the truckers and have them stop and let me check their loads for compliance.

The yellow paint is supposed to make it easy to spot any wayward logs in the export yards. It is against the law to export logs from FS land, except for Alaskan Yellow Cedar, in this area. Logs have shown up in export yards and can be traced back from the brand on the end. I have been told that the brand will show up on an x-ray even if the ends are cut off. The wood will still be compressed in the shape of the brand.

This does seem out of place and a hassle with some of the 80 log loads we have nowdays. But everybody knows what is required so they go in with eyes open.

Mills can be debarred--or forbidden to buy timber and logs from federal land if they are caught with illegal wood from there. Each purchaser fills out forms for where the logs are going. There's rules upon rules, and the rules exist because somebody took advantage of the process.

Firewood goes down the road at all hours here. Sometimes there are permits, sometmes not. We do not have very many "eyes in the woods" anymore. Our guys rely on local people giving them info also.

 

[Billy_Bob]

See, that's what I don't care for. Not to mention the fact that it is un-constitutional, and therefore ilegal. Since the courts are only open from about 10:00 AM to about 4:00 PM, that means if I get ticketed for not having a permit then I have to take at least 1 day off of work. Not to mention draging the land owner into court. Then comes the time to collect the "evidence" required to prove my innocence. As I said earlier, we are supposed to be assumed innocent until proved guilty.

I agree... I like to read true crime books and books written by lawyers. All I can say is I have read some scary stuff! "Innocent until proven guilty" many times has nothing to do with what happens in real life.

I've read many times where lawyers have advised their clients to plea bargain and plead guilty to a lesser charge - when everybody knows they are innocent! And from what I have read, that is the best advice in those cases. (Serious stuff, nothing to do with minor stuff like transporting wood.)

And I've read of selfish prosecutors who *know* someone is innocent, yet prosecute them anyway. Just so they can get another conviction notch on their record.

The harsh reality of our system is with persons who were serving time in prison for rape prior to DNA testing. Later many were found to be innocent when DNA tests were invented and were run on past cases.

Truth *is* stranger than fiction.

 

[redprospector]

So..is it much different than having to prove that the truck you are driving is your truck, or that you have a legal right to use it?

Yep!
If no one stands up for what is right, some day you may have to carry a permit to prove that the bread on your sandwich in your lunch bucket wasn't poached somewhere.
Do you have to carry a permit to prove that you own your chainsaw?
How about your boot's?
I guess they can put a file cabinet in the cab of new trucks as an option to keep all of our permits straight.

Andy

 

[redprospector]

I really don't have a problem with having to have a permit to harvest wood from public lands. I just hauled about 3500 bd ft out of our forest for our local competition, and yes I had a permit for it. But when I make a deal with a private land owner, that is between me and him. If they think I stole it, they need to prove it.
I don't steal wood, or anything else, and I try to abide by the law's we have that are based on the constitution. But I draw the line there.
I guess I'm just rebellious.

Andy

 

[teatersroad]

For logs coming off the Forest Service, there are different requirements in different areas. In Oregon and Washington, if the logs are of any size, both ends must be branded (whacked hard with a hammer with a registered brand on it) and have yellow paint on the ends. The loads also get a ticket on them, and that ticket book is checked out by only people who have been designated, in writing, by the timber sale purchaser. Unused books are turned back in. The ticket books are kept locked up, and only certain people have keys. It makes it hard to forge tickets, although books have been stolen. I'm the first line of defense. I get to annoy the truckers and have them stop and let me check their loads for compliance.

The yellow paint is supposed to make it easy to spot any wayward logs in the export yards. It is against the law to export logs from FS land, except for Alaskan Yellow Cedar, in this area. Logs have shown up in export yards and can be traced back from the brand on the end. I have been told that the brand will show up on an x-ray even if the ends are cut off. The wood will still be compressed in the shape of the brand.

This does seem out of place and a hassle with some of the 80 log loads we have nowdays. But everybody knows what is required so they go in with eyes open.

I helped a friend on a cedar salvage sale in the coast range - Neah Kah Nee Mt area (steep country, heli-log roped turns of shake bolts, hook the turn while crap rained down from rotor wash, and later was regaled in stories of riding out on the hook - which I could understand, Only a days help, back in the 80's, memorable though, and I digress). Not sure if he branded every bolt, but a heck of a lot of them anyways. He also paid usfs dearly to cut the contract area. This is wood that could easily come out poached off the landing by someone else, after a heck of a lot of work - months even. Ready to go, a load of shake bolts looks an awful lot like firewood. So.. Why would John Doe care? Maybe that.

edit> probably state lands there and not usfs

 

[ropensaddle]

Yep!
If no one stands up for what is right, some day you may have to carry a permit to prove that the bread on your sandwich in your lunch bucket wasn't poached somewhere.
Do you have to carry a permit to prove that you own your chainsaw?
How about your boot's?
I guess they can put a file cabinet in the cab of new trucks as an option to keep all of our permits straight.

Andy

I am not a fan of over regulation it is plainly a power play imo to keep the small man down. I feel they need to be regulating the border with all resources they can. I do understand there is real crime but they need to catch the thieves without harassing citizens. To tell you the truth the forest is ours not theirs and we should regulate and expect a breakdown of where all monies are spent in the harvest they do.

 

[Henry G.]

Boy did this thread get off track. Stealing wood off forestry land is something we can all agree is wrong. But when you get pulled over for having cut, split, seasoned firewood in the back of your truck that #### is just WRONG.

 

[dingeryote]

Boy did this thread get off track. Stealing wood off forestry land is something we can all agree is wrong. But when you get pulled over for having cut, split, seasoned firewood in the back of your truck that #### is just WRONG.

Yep!!

A nice reward for Timber thief scalps, and a 48hour "Open season",would cure things. But we are too civilized for that.

Maybe not if enough firewood guys get hassled too many times. LOL!!

Ya gotta guess that a pickup full of rounds ain't going to lumber though, but I suspect that ain't the problem.

Stay safe!
Dineryote

 

[redprospector]

Boy did this thread get off track. Stealing wood off forestry land is something we can all agree is wrong. But when you get pulled over for having cut, split, seasoned firewood in the back of your truck that #### is just WRONG.

I don't know how far off track we are. The OP started out about the sheriff reading him the riot act for not giving someone a permit for a load of firewood, and we're still griping about permits, and discussing why & if they're needed.

I've got to fart, I'll be back. I've got to go get a permit to release methane gas into the atmosphere. :fart:

Andy

 

[TreePointer]

I've got to fart, I'll be back. I've got to go get a permit to release methane gas into the atmosphere. :fart:

Andy

Thanks for the courtesy.

Prepare to have a value-added tax slapped on that fuel product. And if you've been eating burritos, you best be stocking up on your carbon credits.

 

[redprospector]

Thanks for the courtesy.

Prepare to have a value-added tax slapped on that fuel product. And if you've been eating burritos, you best be stocking up on your carbon credits.

You're welcome.

Vallue added tax? Before long we'll just have people send the check to the gubermint, and they can give us what they think is appropriate.
Those dang carbon credits may be the death of me.

Andy

 

[redprospector]

Ok.
Now we're off topic. :hmm3grin2orange:

Andy

 

[dingeryote]

Ok.
Now we're off topic. :hmm3grin2orange:

Andy

No... not at all.

Just a fart Gag to clear the air.:hmm3grin2orange:

Stay safe!
Dingeryote

 

[sneno77]

Insight into the world of Law Enforcement...

Here in Region 1, we have no load tickets for firewood. Cutters are "supposed" to keep their permit on the dash of the truck where it is visible for inspection. Passing a loaded truck on a Forest road at 10mph and not seeing a permit in the dash is probable cause to stop the truck and check permits. Now if that same truck is traveling 55mph down the highway, you have an entirely different scenario. I personally would never make that stop, as it's getting really "grey" and my job/credibility is worth more to me than that. Different states/counties may do things differently, but I work for Uncle Sam, and all my stops are on the "green" with only a few minor exceptions (ie. saw the vehicle leaving the forest at an earlier time).
Someone mentioned catching people in the act is the best way to solve the problem. That is by FAR the easiest/cleanest way to do it, but also the most difficult. Luckily, I happened on a couple cutters today w/ a full load of Western Larch getting ready to load up the saws and head down the hill. Larch is highly prized around here for firewood, so when someone gets one next to the road, it's a rare occurrence. I hiked up the hill to look at the stump and then the branches they had sawed off and realized this was a live tree....VERY ALIVE with plenty of needles just starting to turn yellow w/ the fall cool down. Not only that, the cutters had also dumped a 18" live Ponderosa in attempt to knock down an 8" larch that was hung up in another tree. One load of confiscated wood, two tickets, and two pissed off cutters later, I headed down the hill to complete paperwork.
I say this to illustrate the fact that bad cutters give all of us a bad name. I love to cut wood, but would never dream of cutting a large healthy tree down to retrieve a small firewood tree that wouldn't fill out a rick in my truck.
Do it right, keep it clean, and be courteous, and I'll give you every break in the world. Do it wrong, and be a slob cutter, and I'll do everything I can to make your life miserable.

 

[Hddnis]

Here in Region 1, we have no load tickets for firewood. Cutters are "supposed" to keep their permit on the dash of the truck where it is visible for inspection. Passing a loaded truck on a Forest road at 10mph and not seeing a permit in the dash is probable cause to stop the truck and check permits. Now if that same truck is traveling 55mph down the highway, you have an entirely different scenario. I personally would never make that stop, as it's getting really "grey" and my job/credibility is worth more to me than that. Different states/counties may do things differently, but I work for Uncle Sam, and all my stops are on the "green" with only a few minor exceptions (ie. saw the vehicle leaving the forest at an earlier time).
Someone mentioned catching people in the act is the best way to solve the problem. That is by FAR the easiest/cleanest way to do it, but also the most difficult. Luckily, I happened on a couple cutters today w/ a full load of Western Larch getting ready to load up the saws and head down the hill. Larch is highly prized around here for firewood, so when someone gets one next to the road, it's a rare occurrence. I hiked up the hill to look at the stump and then the branches they had sawed off and realized this was a live tree....VERY ALIVE with plenty of needles just starting to turn yellow w/ the fall cool down. Not only that, the cutters had also dumped a 18" live Ponderosa in attempt to knock down an 8" larch that was hung up in another tree. One load of confiscated wood, two tickets, and two pissed off cutters later, I headed down the hill to complete paperwork.
I say this to illustrate the fact that bad cutters give all of us a bad name. I love to cut wood, but would never dream of cutting a large healthy tree down to retrieve a small firewood tree that wouldn't fill out a rick in my truck.
Do it right, keep it clean, and be courteous, and I'll give you every break in the world. Do it wrong, and be a slob cutter, and I'll do everything I can to make your life miserable.

Great examples from the real world.



Mr. HE