A Tale of Three Saws

[ECsaws]

I believe it has to do with the power band of the two motors and the RPM for which they're designed to make their power. The 880 is designed to make its power at a lower RPM and it has much more mass involved in the reciprocating assembly, clutch, clutch drum, and oil pump gears. My stock 880 turns the same RPM in the wood regardless if the wood is 10" or 40"- it's like a tractor in that respect. My 440, while fast in 10" wood, is much slower in 40" wood. All of the moving parts in the 440 are smaller and lighter so there's less inertia.

There's more to saw performance than just how much power the motor makes. This is one reason some of those earliest saws had huge, heavy flywheels.

JJ I cam totally understand that happening , key word was cuts the same that mean you have power, sounds like you need a BIG gear in small wood to make up chain speed with that torque monster.
But the discussion isn't that your 880 has more power or less:msp_wink:.
the discussion is that a modded 660 wont show it TOURQE unless its in BIG wood , quite simply I say thats a cop out, A "pathetic", excuse !
If you can't pull a saw off it power band in said wood by apply pressure thats torque. Yes the saw may show a better gain in bigger wood because its turning more RPM "not" because it has more grunt.
Guess I'll just sit back for now and wait on the BIG wood videos :msp_rolleyes:

 

[Jacob J.]

JJ I cam totally understand that happening , key word was cuts the same that mean you have power, sounds like you need a BIG gear in small wood to make up chain speed with that torque monster.
But the discussion isn't that your 880 has more power or less

I was merely addressing your point that "size of the wood doesn't matter" when in fact, it does in some cases. I'm not privvy to the videos in this thread on my government connection since Youtube is blocked, so I cannot see what is happening there.

Taking advantage of a broader torque band or an engine designed to make its power at a lower RPM is done just as you said- by using a larger sprocket and/or a larger pitch of chain. Again I refer you to antique saws making their power at 3k-6500 but pulling a 9/16" pitch chain on an 8-tooth spur gear with rakers as low as .065".

 

[AUSSIE1]

JJ I cam totally understand that happening , key word was cuts the same that mean you have power, sounds like you need a BIG gear in small wood to make up chain speed with that torque monster.
But the discussion isn't that your 880 has more power or less:msp_wink:.
the discussion is that a modded 660 wont show it TOURQE unless its in BIG wood , quite simply I say thats a cop out, A "pathetic", excuse !
If you can't pull a saw off it power band in said wood by apply pressure thats torque. Yes the saw may show a better gain in bigger wood because its turning more RPM "not" because it has more grunt.
Guess I'll just sit back for now and wait on the BIG wood videos :msp_rolleyes:

Man have you got issues! Go sort them out.

Just because some may disagree with you, you have to resort to derogatory comments.

Your #### stinks like everyone else's.

You are arguing/purposely offending so many with the same view on the topic.

If you are so right, deal with it in a more professional manner if at all possible.

To think that someone showing this pathetic behavior here is an administrator on another forum is mind boggling!

 

[ECsaws]

Man have you got issues! Go sort them out.

Just because some may disagree with you, you have to resort to derogatory comments.

Your #### stinks like everyone else's.

You are arguing/purposely offending so many with the same view on the topic.

If you are so right, deal with it in a more professional manner if at all possible.

To think that someone showing this pathetic behavior here is an administrator on another forum is mind boggling!

Maybe your rite maybe I did use some strong words sorry :msp_unsure:
I'm not criticizing anyone just simply voicing my opinion.
Perhaps we have a different view/'Opinion on what torque is?
to Me when I put a saw in the wood and it takes more load/bigger sproket what ever to pull it down thats torque witch in turn should cut faster rite ? I'm going to stand be hind what i said untill proven wrong !

 

[mdavlee]

The videos are showing the modded saw is about 12% faster in the second video. Maybe the stock 660 is just a better runner than some of the other stockers around, maybe not.

I get what Eric is saying about having more torque means it should take more pressure or a bigger pin to slow it down. If it has more torque it should cut better in any size wood. In small wood the difference may be smaller than a bigger piece but the % of time it's faster cut should be close.

I myself when I had the 2 7900s one was ported and one wasn't. The ported one ran quite a bit better than it did stock. The other one that I got later ran a lot better than the other did stock. If I remember right the ported one was only 10% faster than the second stocker. Was that kind of disappointing after the ported one gained a lot more than that over itself in the same piece of wood? Yes but that is how it is sometimes. I was just happy I didn't slow the 7900 down with porting with what little I knew at the time.

 

[parrisw]

I think maybe there is a misunderstanding here. I get what Eric is saying. I'm kinda thinking the same I think. The modded saw needs a bigger sprocket or a more aggressive chain to show its true colours in that particular size and kind of wood. My take is now go put a more aggressive chain and bigger sprocket on both saws, and then do the same test, see how things look then.

 

[mdavlee]

I think maybe there is a misunderstanding here. I get what Eric is saying. I'm kinda thinking the same I think. The modded saw needs a bigger sprocket or a more aggressive chain to show its true colours in that particular size and kind of wood. My take is now go put a more aggressive chain and bigger sprocket on both saws, and then do the same test, see how things look then.

The first video says 8 pin for both saws so I would think lowering the rakers would probably be the better solution to get that comparison and he might not have a 9 pin laying around to toss on them.

 

[blsnelling]

My take is now go put a more aggressive chain and bigger sprocket on both saws, and then do the same test, see how things look then.

Which is basically the same thing as putting it in bigger wood. You're basiclly just putting more load on the engine.

 

[parrisw]

The first video says 8 pin for both saws so I would think lowering the rakers would probably be the better solution to get that comparison and he might not have a 9 pin laying around to toss on them.

Which is basically the same thing as putting it in bigger wood. You're basiclly just putting more load on the engine.

YEP, and YEP

 

[solo]

Why not get another factory chain and lower the rakers on it. Test both saws again with factory rake hight, then test them both again with the chain with lower rakers. Just a thought. Even play with gearing a bit.

I believe if a saw is geared properly for wood size and species power is power is power, big wood, small wood. hard wood, soft wood power will win in the end.

 

[MCW]

I think we're pretty well all on the same path when it comes to explaining torque but have different ways of expressing it. Basically in the first vid a few pages back the modified saw was pulling 2,000 more rpm that the stock saw yet cut times were similar. I can assure you that the more aggressive the chain the further ahead the modified saw will get...

Therefore more torque.

 

[MacLaren]

The videos are showing the modded saw is about 12% faster in the second video. Maybe the stock 660 is just a better runner than some of the other stockers around, maybe not.

I get what Eric is saying about having more torque means it should take more pressure or a bigger pin to slow it down. If it has more torque it should cut better in any size wood. In small wood the difference may be smaller than a bigger piece but the % of time it's faster cut should be close.

I myself when I had the 2 7900s one was ported and one wasn't. The ported one ran quite a bit better than it did stock. The other one that I got later ran a lot better than the other did stock. If I remember right the ported one was only 10% faster than the second stocker. Was that kind of disappointing after the ported one gained a lot more than that over itself in the same piece of wood? Yes but that is how it is sometimes. I was just happy I didn't slow the 7900 down with porting with what little I knew at the time.

I think your right Mike. Ive thought all along that when put in bigger wood it will be about the same % difference. In other words I really think that it should cut as well in small wood as in big wood. Every ported saw I have ever seen does. Your 660 sure did. But...I could be wrong and I certainly will not pass judgement until I see the big wood video. Even then i wont pass judgement. I guess what Im sayin is prove it. Prove the theory that this 660 shines much better % wise in big wood vs a stock 660. Thats all, not tryin to be ugly or anything. Beacuse that is what is being said. That it will have to be put in big wood to shine. We shall see. I for one believe that power is power no matter the size of wood. Thanks guys.

 

[parrisw]

Yes, truth be told, its a waste of time picking up a 90cc+ saw in 20" wood, my modded 372 will outcut my modded 395 anyday, up to a certain size of wood. The 395 cuts the same with a 24" bar in 20" wood, or a 36" bar in 40" wood.

 

[Stihlman441]

The videos are showing the modded saw is about 12% faster in the second video. Maybe the stock 660 is just a better runner than some of the other stockers around, maybe not.

Dont foget the stocky has a dual port muff standard on the Ozzy saws and i have a mate with a same age 660 and myne is better than his.

 

[MCW]

Just spoke to Andrew via phone and unfortunately when I posted the saw it got a small part broken off in transit (the small cast tab in front of the oil cap). Thankyou Australia Post you morons... The saw was registered (insured) and now the Post Office have to take the saw into their possession to assess it while Andrew got a quote to fix it - brace yourself gents (OK, those who are in the US etc) but the quoted cost from a Stihl dealer to fix it is around USD$1200!!! Not sure how long it will take. Regardless of whether there is larger wood around the effect can be simulated simply by continuously dropping the rakers and making the chain more aggressive. It will reach a point where the stock saw will start stalling and struggling while the modified one will continue on it's merry way. I know a few people here are probably trying to imply that the modified saw in question is not much faster (or torquier) than a stock 660 based on that first video but I can assure you that's not the case.

When Andrew asked the Post Office how long it will take for them to sort out the paperwork and approve the repairs the girl said "How long is a piece of string". A comment that really inspires confidence in our postal system...

 

[AUSSIE1]

Maybe your rite maybe I did use some strong words sorry :msp_unsure:
I'm not criticizing anyone just simply voicing my opinion.
Perhaps we have a different view/'Opinion on what torque is?
to Me when I put a saw in the wood and it takes more load/bigger sproket what ever to pull it down thats torque witch in turn should cut faster rite ? I'm going to stand be hind what i said untill proven wrong !

I must apologize for my "fly off the handle". One of my many bad habits!

Yes you do have an opinion, entitled to it and good you stand by it.

I understand what your saying and don't disagree with it.

 

[ECsaws]

I must apologize for my "fly off the handle". One of my many bad habits!

Yes you do have an opinion, entitled to it and good you stand by it.

I understand what your saying and don't disagree with it.

Its all good Al we all do it . I think its called human nature.
I'll just shut up and wait for the big wood results.

 

[mdavlee]

What they want to fix it is more than a new one costs over here.

With lower rakers or a 36" bar in that concrete that grows into tree shapes over there should show a bigger difference in between stock and modded.

 

[MCW]

What they want to fix it is more than a new one costs over here.

With lower rakers or a 36" bar in that concrete that grows into tree shapes over there should show a bigger difference in between stock and modded.

Yeah it's stupid mate. If the tab wasn't part of the case I wouldn't be so annoyed (and neither would Andrew). Basically the saw has been devalued through no fault of mine or Andrews and it was pretty well packaged - it would seem somewhere along the line it's been dropped end on and somehow snapped it off. I insured the saw for the same amount it would cost me to get a new modded one from ths states but even then it pulled up about $200 shy of a stock Aussie delivered 660. The parts were half the cost, the rest was labour.

As I mentioned when the same chain on this 660 that it was pulling easily with an 8 pin was put on my modded 390XP Husky it was just a nightmare with stalling. Even when I fitted the Husky with a 7 pin it was stalling too much. It just goes to show that a less powerful saw may not pull a chain set up for a different saw as easily. Bigger bars in bigger wood, lower rakers, more hook, more aggressive sharpening techniques, a heavier hand, a larger sprocket etc etc. They all add up to more load on a saw individually or in combination.

 

[ECsaws]

Correct me if I'm wrong here Matt are you insinuating that I'm discrediting this saw or it builder ? If so your way out of line cuz I'm NOT in any way and if it appears that way you have my deepest apology. I learnt along time ago two wrongs neaver make a rite.
just to clarify what I'm "trying" to say.
I dont disagree with lower rakers more aggressive chains bigger sprockets etc....
I do however question that the saws in the video that Andrew posted will get faster/stronger with said adjustments . It quite obvious by watching/listing to the videos that the saw is coming out of its powerband / not holding RPM in the wood, pulling down how ever you want to say it. Not that it cutting bad, cuz it runs quite nice, it maybe just what it is. After all most porters know 660 gains are hard to get they run quite well out of the box with a MM.
I actually have a new 660 here that belongs to a Professional faller from Idaho that will be used Solly for mega wood as he calls it:msp_thumbup:. I'm excited to see what's to be had in there.
I hope this post is more professional , Again sorry for my earlier outrage.