Awesome Friction Reducing Product - Chainsawa and Everything Else - Energy Release

[FATGUY]

the product is of little consequence to me, it was the peddling I didn't like. Wanna sell something here? Buy the ticket, take the ride.

 

[spacemule]

In a vehicle with a full gauge package, you'll typically see your oil pressure go up 5 lbs and your operating temperature (water coolant) go down 5-10 degrees.

I particularly liked this part. If it were reducing friction, oil pressure would go down, not up. Furthermore, water temperature is controlled by your thermostat and cooling fan, completely independent of any oil additive.

I swear dude, you should go to work selling Amsoil, as the bs level is about on par with them.

 

[parrisw]

O'reileys regional outside sales guy asked me several years ago why I dont have catastrofic a/c compressor failures like most shops do (I have never had one blow up had a few leaks warranteed but none blow up) the only thing I do different besides read the DIRECTIONS is add 2 oz ER, he asked me for a sample which I gladly gave him. Well you can talk to 4 Seasons about that conversation and their test results ets and they will tell you off the record that ER is working and they have their own product that they send with ALL new and reman compressors its probably the same type compounds I only guess there but thats all true.
Kansas

The reason why most systems blow up is a poor quality repair job. When putting in a new compressor you need to get the old crap out with flushing,flushing, flushing. And sometimes you can't get it all out, espicially the condensor, thats why you can buy a tool that you can put a screen on the suction side of the compressor, to trap any crap left over, I do not use any miracle products in anything, including my AC work, and I've never had a compressor failure. Abide by the manufactures reccomendations, and you'll be fine. You got any junk left over when installing a new compressor, I don't care what you put in there, that new compressor is going to blow!!

Seems the main ingredeient is Chlorinated paraffins ??? Ya, like I'm going to put that in anything.

 

[ShoerFast]

I particularly liked this part. If it were reducing friction, oil pressure would go down, not up. Furthermore, water temperature is controlled by your thermostat and cooling fan, completely independent of any oil additive.

I swear dude, you should go to work selling Amsoil, as the bs level is about on par with them.

Oil dose do a lot of cooling also, but your right about the bs level.

 

[ShoerFast]

One of my favorite movies also!

fwtw I am a "seasoned" mechanic also lol lord I apologuise and by that I mean I have fed my family succesfully (and still am in my own shop) in a crappy career field with some crappy pay working on crap for crappy people I know crap when I see it ER is not crap or snake oil.

You call ER snake oil thats your perogative free country (for now) but its simply an additive thats it the same EXACT thing that makes one oil better than another in one way or another is ADDITIVES period all oils have them and they are in there to do certain things and metal conditioners are an important part of ALL oils. Base oil is nothing but thin smelly petroleum it wont lube anything its the additives and further refining that makes oil oil.

edit: Oh the history part well he was using Rotella so it wouldnt have changed anything.


Kansas

Understand that I think your a good guy, you mean well , and i mean to present no attack on you.

I do not cut anyone any slack that peddles any form of snake-oil, ER is just another little company trying to peddle the same ol snake oil that hundreds of companies before them have tried to peddle before.


ER makes a lot of claims for something that eats your engine!

Here is a fairly good read on additives, it will also explain why a high 'zinc' content is sometimes used to brake-in radical lift cam-shafts.

The Science of it All Part II Link:
Why have automotive engine oil additives generated so much controversy? PTFE, Molybdenum, zinc dialkyldithiophosphate, chlorinated parrafins, and others have all been used with varying degrees of success. What is the truth and why have none of the engine oil additives lived up to early "hype"? This article will help you make the right choice for your automotive engine needs.
That question has sparked controversy for years in the automotive and diesel industries. Are the various engine oil additives really just the modern automotive versions of "Snake Oil"?

Many engine oil additives promise to reduce friction. The presence of friction – metal on metal inside the engine’s combustion chamber - generates intense heat and often indicates the galling of metal parts and surfaces. In other words, your engine is being gouged, scored or gashed piece by piece over time. (See test photos at reference below).

There are several major kinds of engine oil additives:

1. Ptfe engine oil additives (Polytetrafluoroethylene, which is Teflon TM).

2. Engine oil additives containing solvents and detergents, such as kerosene, naphthalene, xylene, acetone or isopropanol.

3. Engine oil additives containing zinc dialkyldithiophosphate ("zinc" for our purposes here).

4. Engine oil products using the same additives used by oil manufacturers, only in different amounts and combinations.

5. Other engine oil additives such as chlorinated paraffins and molybdenum.

PTFE

Polytetrafluoroethylene got off to a rough start in its early career as an engine oil additive. The DuPont Chemical Corporation, its inventor, issued a now famous statement which read: "Teflon is not useful as an ingredient in oil additives or oils used for internal combustion engines."

By court action, DuPont was forced to sell Ptfe to manufacturers of engine oil additives. To their credit, DuPont still maintains they have "no knowledge of any advantage gained through the use of PTFE in engine oil."

Why the controversy? Remember, this additive is a suspended solid. Imagine introducing an additive with solids which your oil filter is designed to remove. So, your oil filter collects as much of the suspended solids as possible. The result? Clogged oil filters and a marked drop in oil pressure.

Ah, but there’s a "comeback" to that critique. Manufacturers claim it is of sub-micron size, passing through engine oil filters.

That isn’t the whole story.

I’ve spent nearly three decades working to find chemical solutions to industrial problems. When you test chemicals, you must follow them through the whole cycle of their use.

Polytetrafluoroethylene expands radically in size when subjected to heat. It starts out "sub-micron", but you won’t find any guarantees that it will stay that size when engine heats to normal operating temperatures.

Ptfe is often criticized for the oil pressure drop accompanying its use. This again is probably due to the clogging of oil filters. What is disturbing is that there are tests showing the presence of iron contamination in the oil due to increased engine wear after its use.

Maybe this one is best kept in your non-stick frying pan.

Solvent and detergent engine oil additives: Outmoded?

Engine oil additives designed to dissolve sludge and carbon deposits inside your engine use solvents and detergents. They are usually naphthalene, xylene, acetone, isopropanol or kerosene in a standard mineral base.

The problem? They can strip away more than sludge or deposits. They can strip away the boundary lubrication layer provided by your motor oil. With that, you would be promoting increased metal-to-metal contact within your engine.

"Miracle" Zinc?

Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate ("zinc") was originally touted as the "miracle" engine oil additive, replacing Ptfe. As an engine oil additive it has been used in many standard additive packages.

Zinc is advertised for extreme pressure, anti-wear engine protection. It is particularly useful in high stress, prolonged metal-to-metal conditions found in racing. But, for all of its fanfare, racing conditions are not what the vast majority of motorists face.

Your automobile should never face such stresses under normal, everyday driving conditions. Interestingly enough, years ago oil companies reduced the amount of zinc in standard engine oil packages because of damage to catalytic converters and increased spark plug fouling.

Furthermore, zinc is a hazardous substance. It has the capacity to inflict serious damage to your eyes. As an engine oil additive, it really hasn’t "lived up" to its original high expectations. And as a "miracle", you won’t start a new religion with this one. Same additives used by car manufacturers

The oils from major oil companies servicing the automotive, truck and bike industries already come "loaded" with engine oil additives and work in combinations, synergistically. Adding more of the same additive will not bring added benefit. Many things in the world of chemistry act in such a way that more is definitely not better. Think of adding a hot pepper sauce to a mix. Some adds flavor. More can make for a memorable event.

Sulfur compounds, for example, are used to protect your engine at lower engine temperatures but coke out forming sludge at higher temperatures. More will not help your engine and can, in fact, do actual harm.

"Other" engine oil additives: More snake oil

Chlorinated paraffins have had some success as an engine oil additive. But, there are severe drawbacks. With intense heating, as in an internal combustion engine, the chlorinated paraffins release hydrochloric gases and acids.

Chlorinated paraffins are thermally unstable and above 200°C deteriorate, generating strong acid radicals (hydrogen chloride, free chloride ions). These radicals begin to attack metal surfaces, forming chloride films of the metal. "Stress crack corrosion" in the metal surfaces and corrosion of bearings, piston and valve trains can result.

Chlorinated Paraffins are known to be carcinogens, toxic to humans and to aquatic environments. These substances accumulate, bringing effects that may be irreversible to man or environment.

Molybdenum engine oil additives claim to maintain or improve the antiwear/antifriction properties of engine oil. The problem is that they solidify and may create clogged bypass filters, block oil galleries, reduced lubrication and add engine surface wear.

Frankly, none of these problems are necessary. There is a much better solution to the engine oil additives issue. It’s no "miracle" either. It came straight out of the science and successful use of decades of industrial manufacturing solutions.

Jim Stuart is a chemical research scientist specializing in automotive, diesel, tractor, and marine engine oil additive technologies. To contact him, go to http://www.technicianstip.com or call 262-646-7579.

Stainless Steels react quickly to hydrogen chloride and free chloride ions, just giving another reason to stay away, as some higher quality valves are now being turned from various stainless steels.

If an A&P Mechanic would add ER to an aircraft engine and any type of failure to that engine would happen, there is a very very good chance that A&P would go to jail for manslaughter if it resulted in loss of life.

I will stick to the best mechanic/machine work I can do, good oils that I can count on, and never doubt my work or cut snake oils any slack.

 

[Paul001]

I still like Rachel Ray better......

I hope Paula isn't your second choice

 

[Banacanin]

Something seems strange to me, yesterday a the OP had a really negative Rep and now it is fabulous. It is strange that an Arborist Site MVP, who seems to use similar language choices (but nothing I can put my finger on exactly) brings this hijacked thread back on track. Once again there is discussion about the dis-reputed product.

If the op post is considered embarrassing by the MVP (and does not do a service to the product, as the MVP related) why does he continue and perpetuate the thread and how did the much maligned op get such a glowing rep?

Anyone on here want to own up to repping the op?

 

[Kansas]

Understand that I think your a good guy, you mean well , and i mean to present no attack on you.


Here is a fairly good read on additives, it will also explain why a high 'zinc' content is sometimes used to brake-in radical lift cam-shafts.



I will stick to the best mechanic/machine work I can do, good oils that I can count on, and never doubt my work or cut snake oils any slack.

I appreciate that and I dont take it as an attack on me believe me its agreed we have differing views on what this product is or should be called etc and thats what makes this world interesting.

My stand point is simply as I stated already several times is oils ALL of them have friction reducers in them this is just one more that does OTHER things besides modify motor oil IE refrigerant oil and hydraulic oils and trans fluid.

I am fully in agreement with you on the use good oils and let them do their job believe me.

Thanks for the article been there already, please read the very reason I said the engine builders engine failed was probably due to the fact zinc has been removed from most oils because roller cams dont need it for a friction reducer.

edit: honestly I dont know where the chlorinated parafin thing came from where did I miss that? To my knowledge there isnt any in ER least there wasnt when it was owned by the origanal people in Idaho?


Kansas

 

[ShoerFast]

I appreciate that and I dont take it as an attack on me believe me its agreed we have differing views on what this product is or should be called etc and thats what makes this world interesting.

My stand point is simply as I stated already several times is oils ALL of them have friction reducers in them this is just one more that does OTHER things besides modify motor oil IE refrigerant oil and hydraulic oils and trans fluid.

I am fully in agreement with you on the use good oils and let them do their job believe me.

Thanks for the article been there already, please read the very reason I said the engine builders engine failed was probably due to the fact zinc has been removed from most oils because roller cams dont need it for a friction reducer.

Kansas

Now as a point of discussion, I truly do not believe that ER saved the engine builders cam-lobe problem. Not if it was needed to brake-in his cams. If I may?.....

For that point of discussion, if he is using Shell Rotella 'T' oil any industrial cam grind is going to ware in and polish right up for him, if everything is right to start with? With out knowing the extent that he rebuilds engines to, I would suspect his method of welding the lobes back up were a problem, like his shielding gas or welding wire selection combination giving him some porosity? If so, increasing the final axis-angle he is grinding into them might help? 3 degrees or more should work?

A phone call to Berry Cams in Lester Parrie Minnesota would be a dime well spent. They ran into a like problem and found that half the lobe built up with nickel-filler welding rod gave them the lifter spin they needed.

Very honestly, if your needing ER to brake an engine in, your machining work is going to reduce your TBO time considerably.

edit: honestly I dont know where the chlorinated parafin thing came from where did I miss that? To my knowledge there isnt any in ER least there wasnt when it was owned by the origanal people in Idaho?


Kansas

Edit: I missed the chlorinated paraffin thing also, and I am the one that posted the MSDS!

I really suspected zinc, as it would have needed a spill and shipping warning attached to it for the controlled haz-mat.

What I did catch is there MSDS is wrongly labeled in it's 'in case it's on fire' section, as chlorinated paraffin requires full turn-out gear and down-wind evacuation, or one could think?

 

[Zombiechopper]

Something seems strange to me, yesterday a the OP had a really negative Rep and now it is fabulous. It is strange that an Arborist Site MVP, who seems to use similar language choices (but nothing I can put my finger on exactly) brings this hijacked thread back on track. Once again there is discussion about the dis-reputed product.

If the op post is considered embarrassing by the MVP (and does not do a service to the product, as the MVP related) why does he continue and perpetuate the thread and how did the much maligned op get such a glowing rep?

Anyone on here want to own up to repping the op?

It is wierd. On the first day he had four red boxes...now they are all green. Lotsa people must really like the sales pitch

 

[tdi-rick]

[snip]
edit: honestly I dont know where the chlorinated parafin thing came from where did I miss that? To my knowledge there isnt any in ER least there wasnt when it was owned by the origanal people in Idaho?


Kansas

That was from me if you scroll back through a few pages.
I included a link to another forum where chlorinated paraffins are discussed by a couple of tribologists.

Shoerfast listed the MSDS, it's CAS # is in there as the active.

Sorry, but i've seen this time and again on these additives, Bitron, Prolong, etc. it's nearly always a Chlor paraffin as the active in a simple Group I carrier oil.

AFAIK, chlorinated paraffins haven't been used in mainstream blends from any of the majors for Gods knows how long as there are better/more stable EP additives.
Some people become obsessed with EP additives in engine oils when it actually isn't always needed, or at least as much as some believe, much like anyone that uses a flat tappet cam engine believes they need >1500PPM ZDDP, when in actual fact things like borate esters do a better job as an anti-scuff/EP additive, they are just more expensive to use from the blenders POV.
Getting OT here a little, in my investigations most flat tappet cam problems come from either incorrectly radiused lifters or lobes with the incorrect taper.
This isn't new either, a long time ago (10-15 years) when building race engines we found QC from the manufacturers we could access was hit and miss, so we had to individually inspect each and every lifter, then we built a cam running in rig to bed the cams and lifters before they were even assembled into a block.
It also saved the 1/2hr running above 2000 RPM on initial startup for the same purpose, which I absolutely hated on a fresh engine.

 

[PetrolHead]

The reason why most systems blow up is a poor quality repair job. When putting in a new compressor you need to get the old crap out with flushing,flushing, flushing. And sometimes you can't get it all out, espicially the condensor, thats why you can buy a tool that you can put a screen on the suction side of the compressor, to trap any crap left over, I do not use any miracle products in anything, including my AC work, and I've never had a compressor failure. Abide by the manufactures reccomendations, and you'll be fine. You got any junk left over when installing a new compressor, I don't care what you put in there, that new compressor is going to blow!!
Seems the main ingredeient is Chlorinated paraffins ??? Ya, like I'm going to put that in anything.

Personally I would be asking a lot of questions before throwing anything unknown into my aircon system. EG; is it compatible (will it mix well) with PAG & ESTER oils? Is it compatible with R134 etc? Is it Hygroscopic (moisture retaining)? All these things are important, I agree with the quoted post, but want to add that Moisture, High header pressures, Over charging, Faulty TX valves, and more can all kill a compressor. I would be very careful what I added to an aircon system.

 

[tdi-rick]

Personally I would be asking a lot of questions before throwing anything unknown into my aircon system. EG; is it compatible (will it mix well) with PAG & ESTER oils? Is it compatible with R134 etc? Is it Hygroscopic (moisture retaining)? All these things are important, I agree with the quoted post, but want to add that Moisture, High header pressures, Over charging, Faulty TX valves, and more can all kill a compressor. I would be very careful what I added to an aircon system.

For a start it wont be dehydrated and I bet it isn't de-waxed.

PAG's are unbelievably hygroscopic, worse than POE's, but even good old mineral based Suniso 5GS was dehydrated and de-waxed so it didn't create acids and actually flowed without waxing at sub zero temps.
The miscibilty of mineral oils with HFC's (R134A) is extremely low.


[edit]just for $%^$ and giggles, I dug up an old spec sheet on 5GS.

Pour point of -23*C
No floc point given
moisture content <30ppm

 

[PetrolHead]

For a start it wont be dehydrated and I bet it isn't de-waxed.

PAG's are unbelievably hygroscopic, worse than POE's, but even good old mineral based Suniso 5GS was dehydrated and de-waxed so it didn't create acids and actually flowed without waxing at sub zero temps.
The miscibilty of mineral oils with HFC's (R134A) is extremely low.


[edit]just for $%^$ and giggles, I dug up an old spec sheet on 5GS.

Pour point of -23*C
No floc point given
moisture content <30ppm

All valid points, which reinforces the main point, use a known lubricant with known properties and your on the home stretch. PAG always came in sealed/measured tins, anything that could be potentially/easily exposed to the atmosphere should be used with great caution I think.

 

[rbtree]

Holy crap, I'm glad I found you guys...I need some help.

I was up on the front bumper of my Dodge Ramcharger, adjusting the cow magnets on my 318's 2 bbl carb when my knee bumped one of my deer whistles, knocking it out of adjustment.

I don't want to drive at night until I get them re-aligned, but I can not find my instructions.

I have the excalibur IIV whistles (chrome plated of course). If anyone has calibration specs for them, please do post. The deer are running crazy up here and I have a seminar to get to....

Rick

Aye, but did you zero out the flux capacitor that powers the muffler bearing?

 

[Banacanin]

Aye, but did you zero out the flux capacitor that powers the muffler bearing?

oh man you don't know much about cars lol , the EPA banned flux capacitors and this model's muffler chassis has a flywheel return spring in place of bearings

 

[Paul001]

The one thing this thread has shown...

There are some serious gearheads around these parts.

 

[FullCry]

I didn't have time to read this whole post but back in the 1980's there was a product out called SLICK 50 and it had the same claims as this product of discussion. I don't know if it is still out there...or maybe they changed the name to this new name. Anyway I can't afford it so maybe you can send me some samples? FullCry

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

oh man you don't know much about cars lol , the EPA banned flux capacitors and this model's muffler chassis has a flywheel return spring in place of bearings

Oh, give it a rest! You obviously know nothing about the subject! You are just rattling your keyboard!


Anyone who knows anything about it knows that muffler bearings are passive devices - they don't need a power source at all! Flux capacitors are the power source of choice for fuel magnets. They get the gasoline molecules aligned much better than any other type.


And "flywheel return spring"? HA! You just made that up!

Everybody who knows cars knows the flywheel return spring has nothing to do with the exhaust system!


If you can't contribute something sensible, just sit back and learn from your betters! You can't fool people around here with that kind of double talk!



Now, pardon me while I go burn some Brown's gas to create free energy....

 

[ShoerFast]

That was from me if you scroll back through a few pages.
I included a link to another forum where chlorinated paraffins are discussed by a couple of tribologists.

Shoerfast listed the MSDS, it's CAS # is in there as the active.

Sorry, but i've seen this time and again on these additives, Bitron, Prolong, etc. it's nearly always a Chlor paraffin as the active in a simple Group I carrier oil.

AFAIK, chlorinated paraffins haven't been used in mainstream blends from any of the majors for Gods knows how long as there are better/more stable EP additives.
Some people become obsessed with EP additives in engine oils when it actually isn't always needed, or at least as much as some believe, much like anyone that uses a flat tappet cam engine believes they need >1500PPM ZDDP, when in actual fact things like borate esters do a better job as an anti-scuff/EP additive, they are just more expensive to use from the blenders POV.
Getting OT here a little, in my investigations most flat tappet cam problems come from either incorrectly radiused lifters or lobes with the incorrect taper.
This isn't new either, a long time ago (10-15 years) when building race engines we found QC from the manufacturers we could access was hit and miss, so we had to individually inspect each and every lifter, then we built a cam running in rig to bed the cams and lifters before they were even assembled into a block.
It also saved the 1/2hr running above 2000 RPM on initial startup for the same purpose, which I absolutely hated on a fresh engine.

Thanks Tdi-Rick !

Ain't sure what you said, but I know when to listen!

What I do know is how hard it would have been to get the Center-Line offsets perfect in your 'cam running in rig' as that can vary from block to block tremendously.

I believe that he cheapest insurance there is running a broke in cam from one block in another block is a new set of lifters, your rig might help there?

Your right about doing anything you can to avoid that first 1/2 hour of uninterrupted cam-lifter brake in, as that is the worst time there is to have your fire-guard to wave you the kill sign!

Have you ever worked with quinchants?

I would like a home brew close to no longer manufactured Texaco type 'A'