Barber chair!

[zogger]

Stick around, Preston. We'll show you so many fancy cuts that you'll take all day just trying to figure out which ones to use. After you get the basics like Humboldt, Humboldt with a snipe, box face, and conventional we'll start you in on Sis-wheels, soft dutchmans, tapered hinges, side notching, springboards, wedging, jacking, and maybe even bore cutting.

How many trees do you have?

Georgia...has a LOT of trees. I just looked, 581 registered logging companies and who knows how many part timers/side job/firewood guys/farmers who do some clearing, etc there are. This is the largest state this side of ole big mud, and has tons of trees, beaucoup. You fly into hartsfield and look down and it's freeking green right up to downtown Atlanta. It's a fairly big industry here and has been for a long time, but most of it is mechanized now. Back in the old days they near destroyed the state with overlogging. Very little virgin old growth left, but since then and having better practices it has rebound and will keep getting better.

New Georgia Encyclopedia: Forest Removal in the Georgia Mountains

And you still see CCC forest all over.




The east coast used to have some really large timber, it just got mostly cut off. There just hasn't been enough centuries to regrow it back yet. I've been in an old cedar forest in michigan in a park (won a state wide essay contest back in grade school, free week at a camp prize) that is medium awesome for the sheer scale of the trees.


Our deciduous trees tend to be shorter than your west coast trees (well, duh), but very broad with heavy spreading limbs. There's some bonafide monsters here still. Like I have said, I have pulled *five* cords now just from the upper narrower limbs off the oak in my front yard that the bucket truck guys dropped. Two hundred years ago I bet the trees were twice as big. The bulk of the tree in my yard is still there. And this isn't the largest tree around here, although it is one of the largest. I know of one not far from here that is a blowdown now, some sort of oak, that makes this one look like 10 year old sapling.

And it's basically the same as you work your way up the Appalachians or straight north on up through Michigan. State after state. Very diverse forests for the most part, pockets here and there of bonafide big trees, and zillions of acres of smaller but still commercially viable trees. A lot on public forest land, a lot still held privately by individuals or companies.

Georgia Pacific wood has built a lot of homes around the US, and is pretty diverse in cellulose based products now....

Georgia-Pacific - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Hddnis]

14 acres to work on.

Ok now, I have one I need down now to give my garden more sunlight. My problem with this one is it's a white oak with about a 30 inch base. It goes up about 20 feet and splits off in two directions. The main trunk seem to go pretty much straight up but a tad of a lean. The other one is smaller and more of a lean to opposite direction. I have a clearing where the garden is I need to drop it but neither lean is pointed in that direction. Will a face cut and a back side wedge move it in the right direction? What I don't want is this tree taking down others I don't want broken, so the clearing is really where it's needs to go.

What's got me afraid of this one is one I cut like this before. By the time I got the saw to a point on the back cut to clear the wedge the tree pinched back and the wedge could not be driven in. Believe it or not, well with me you probably will, the only thing that saved me was a big gust of wind that moved it enough to place the wedge and get the saw out. Then with an 8 lb sledge I got it on down. I think back on trees I've cut down without the face cut and almost break out in a sweat. For some reason pine was never much of a problem with me, but hardwoods seem to think all by themselves. :msp_smile:

With those face cuts you named off, do what!:msp_confused:

Some of them really aren't even a face cut, but more of a cut system that works together between face and back cuts. If you search youtube there are some good videos. You'll have to watch some of them several times to really figure out what is being done.

I've curious if you're using plastic falling wedges? Even if the tree sets back you should be able to get one started, although I've had some that were plenty difficult to start. If it happens again try starting a wedge right next to your bar, then a second one next to it. Some trees you'll just end up with a line of wedges sticking out of the back cut to get enough lift. That would indicate a lot of pressue on the back side and I'd be wanting a really strong hinge and be watching that tree really close at that point. I'd be sweating too.

Don't feel bad about being saved by a gust of wind either, God was smiling on you that day. I've used wind gusts to replace wedges and drop trees against the lean before. I'm not saying to make a practice of it, but sometimes in the right situation it saves work without adding risk.



Mr. HE

 

[jropo]

Stick around, Preston. We'll show you so many fancy cuts that you'll take all day just trying to figure out which ones to use. After you get the basics like Humboldt, Humboldt with a snipe, box face, and conventional we'll start you in on Sis-wheels, soft dutchmans, tapered hinges, side notching, springboards, wedging, jacking, and maybe even bore cutting.

How many trees do you have?

:msp_confused:opcorn: Enter the I have my pen and paper smilie here.

Georgia...has a LOT of trees. I just looked, 581 registered logging companies and who knows how many part timers/side job/firewood guys/farmers who do some clearing, etc there are. This is the largest state this side of ole big mud, and has tons of trees, beaucoup. You fly into hartsfield and look down and it's freeking green right up to downtown Atlanta. It's a fairly big industry here and has been for a long time, but most of it is mechanized now. Back in the old days they near destroyed the state with overlogging. Very little virgin old growth left, but since then and having better practices it has rebound and will keep getting better.

New Georgia Encyclopedia: Forest Removal in the Georgia Mountains

And you still see CCC forest all over.




The east coast used to have some really large timber, it just got mostly cut off. There just hasn't been enough centuries to regrow it back yet. I've been in an old cedar forest in michigan in a park (won a state wide essay contest back in grade school, free week at a camp prize) that is medium awesome for the sheer scale of the trees.


Our deciduous trees tend to be shorter than your west coast trees (well, duh), but very broad with heavy spreading limbs. There's some bonafide monsters here still. Like I have said, I have pulled *five* cords now just from the upper narrower limbs off the oak in my front yard that the bucket truck guys dropped. Two hundred years ago I bet the trees were twice as big. The bulk of the tree in my yard is still there. And this isn't the largest tree around here, although it is one of the largest. I know of one not far from here that is a blowdown now, some sort of oak, that makes this one look like 10 year old sapling.

And it's basically the same as you work your way up the Appalachians or straight north on up through Michigan. State after state. Very diverse forests for the most part, pockets here and there of bonafide big trees, and zillions of acres of smaller but still commercially viable trees. A lot on public forest land, a lot still held privately by individuals or companies.

Georgia Pacific wood has built a lot of homes around the US, and is pretty diverse in cellulose based products now....

Georgia-Pacific - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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View attachment 226567
Yup, we did have some nice trees here from what I understand.
Not to step on anyones toes but, at one time there was more BF that came out of Mi. than PNW.
They clear cut this state and moved on west.
The only thing that comes to mind as far as Old Growth forrest around here is Hartwick Pines, and them don't even seem that big it was just an area that was left untouched, but still nice to see, its all we have, that I know of.

Hartwick Pines State Park

If its big and Old there's a reason!!!!!
I have heared that the U.P. still has some nice ones.

 

[kodiak]

... The main trunk seem to go pretty much straight up but a tad of a lean. The other one is smaller and more of a lean to opposite direction. I have a clearing where the garden is I need to drop it but neither lean is pointed in that direction. Will a face cut and a back side wedge move it in the right direction? What I don't want is this tree taking down others I don't want broken, so the clearing is really where it's needs to go....

It's hard to give you an exact recipe for success. However, it appears that you have the time to take extra measures if needed. If it was me (and I've got time), I'd be getting out my 100' cable and snatch block to use in conjunction with the wedges

 

[zogger]

:msp_confused:opcorn: Enter the I have my pen and paper smilie here.




View attachment 226566
View attachment 226565
View attachment 226567
Yup, we did have some nice trees here from what I understand.
Not to step on anyones toes but, at one time there was more BF that came out of Mi. than PNW.
They clear cut this state and moved on west.
The only thing that comes to mind as far as Old Growth forrest around here is Hartwick Pines, and them don't even seem that big it was just an area that was left untouched, but still nice to see, its all we have, that I know of.

Hartwick Pines State Park

If its big and Old there's a reason!!!!!
I have heared that the U.P. still has some nice ones.

The ones I remember where in the manistee forest. There were near a canoe camp, you had to canoe..I forget, several miles up the river to get to the camp. Took a long time. All I remember is huge whoppers, it was like perpetual dusk at high noon under the canopy wayyy overhead. Zee-ro undergrowth, the leaf litter layer on the ground was like two feet deep before you hit real dirt. I remember just kneeling down and digging with my hands because I wasn't believing it, how deep it was. That stretch of huge trees wasn't a real big area, but the rangers/counselors made a point of taking us over there to check it out. I was told it was a climax forest, that's all I remember.

Now I was a kid and going on my memory now, JFK was still kicking. In fact, that was the summer before that november when he ceased kicking.

Who knows, maybe they are gone now.

 

[jropo]

The ones I remember where in the manistee forest. There were near a canoe camp, you had to canoe..I forget, several miles up the river to get to the camp. Took a long time. All I remember is huge whoppers, it was like perpetual dusk at high noon under the canopy wayyy overhead. Zee-ro undergrowth, the leaf litter layer on the ground was like two feet deep before you hit real dirt. I remember just kneeling down and digging with my hands because I wasn't believing it, how deep it was. That stretch of huge trees wasn't a real big area, but the rangers/counselors made a point of taking us over there to check it out. I was told it was a climax forest, that's all I remember.

Now I was a kid and going on my memory now, JFK was still kicking. In fact, that was the summer before that november when he ceased kicking.

Who knows, maybe they are gone now.

Sounds cool!!
I'd be surprised if they are still there.

 

[branchbuzzer]

Linville Gorge is one of the few places in the east that has old growth. It's a trek to get down into the bottom, but worth it to see. One of the nicest areas in the S. Appy's IMO.

 

[Preston]

It's hard to give you an exact recipe for success. However, it appears that you have the time to take extra measures if needed. If it was me (and I've got time), I'd be getting out my 100' cable and snatch block to use in conjunction with the wedges

That's what I was thinking about too. I have 6 steel wedges. One of those is the one I couldn't get started in the white oak.

Would you trust a 1 inch grass rope. I have 600 feet of that. I got from an elevator co on a highrise I was working on. They use it for hauling car rails up the shaft.

 

[Dale]

RandyMac, impressive pics. I'd send you one of thos rep hickey-ma-doodles if I knew how. Something tells me by the pic quality, and logger "style" that those pics were a bit more than a couple years ago. :cool2:

 

[Gologit]

That's what I was thinking about too. I have 6 steel wedges. One of those is the one I couldn't get started in the white oak.

Would you trust a 1 inch grass rope. I have 600 feet of that. I got from an elevator co on a highrise I was working on. They use it for hauling car rails up the shaft.

Steel wedges are to split with, plastic wedges work better for falling. Steel wedges are usually sloped wrong for falling and if you nick one while you're cutting your chain is usually toast.

Grass rope? How old? I'd trust cable or a synthetic line over grass rope. It would be a bad deal if that old rope broke on you when you had tension on it and you lost the tree besides.

I can't really tell you anything definite about falling the tree unless you post some pictures of it. Beware of those that think they can.

If the tree is a heavy leaner or branch heavy on one side there's only a certain amount that cuts and wedges will swing. For now, why not concentrate on the plainer cuts and drop it with the lean?

Post some pictures when you get a chance.

 

[KiwiBro]

Steel wedges are to split with, plastic wedges work better for falling. Steel wedges are usually sloped wrong for falling and if you nick one while you're cutting your chain is usually toast.

For what it's worth, I use both. It's probably because I haven't learned to use plastic wedges correctly, but there's something I find almost primal and deeply satisfying about beating on steel at the base of a big tree.

 

[sawinredneck]

OK Preston, you getting into the groove now!
About five years ago I was taking down a 31" Hedge. I don't know how much you know about the species, but hard as a rock, normally codoms twisted together in many manner that large. Nasty stuff! This tree was particularly bad, you could see the gaps where the trees had twisted together as it grew and I was worried about it barber chairing on me. So being the ingenious fellow I am, I made my face cut, then started a sloping back cut down to match my face. The sloping back cut would keep it from chairing on me, so I had in my head. Well, a bad idea got executed worse! I missed lining up the back cut, I was way low! Lots of wedges, lots of stacking and a lot more beating, I got it to go over. But as it went it shot off the stump back at me! I was unhurt, but it shook me up good and I learned that the sloping back cut didn't help prevent barber chair.
I've had plenty of screw ups myself, been lucky many times! Had to "fence post" a 24" Oak once, scariest damn thing I've ever done! I missed my face and dropped it into another tree. I've learned to be more precise!
I've done more dumb #### than I can even recall, much less want to recall! My point being this is dangerous stuff, even if you do everything right, by the book, as it was explained etc., at the end of the day, that tree is going to do what that tree wants to! There is always going to be something you didn't foresee or expect. Head winds, tail winds, twist from weight on one side or the other.
No one cut is best, no one cut is a cure all. I use a 90 deg open face as much as I can anymore, because it's easy and with my broken back I have to make things as easy as I can. I've also been doing something that's going to bite me in the ass one day soon, I've been making the back cut even with the bottom of my face. It's not right, but puts wood on the trailer fast, keeps the stumps low for my skidsteer and I don't trip over them! I've got to change that method and I know it, but I just love that damn smooth low stump! We all do dumb things, and we all get into patterns we like, but we have to remember there are more tools in the tool box and sometimes we all need to pull our heads out of our butts!

 

[RandyMac]

 

[Preston]

OK Preston, you getting into the groove now!
About five years ago I was taking down a 31" Hedge. I don't know how much you know about the species, but hard as a rock, normally codoms twisted together in many manner that large. Nasty stuff! This tree was particularly bad, you could see the gaps where the trees had twisted together as it grew and I was worried about it barber chairing on me. So being the ingenious fellow I am, I made my face cut, then started a sloping back cut down to match my face. The sloping back cut would keep it from chairing on me, so I had in my head. Well, a bad idea got executed worse! I missed lining up the back cut, I was way low! Lots of wedges, lots of stacking and a lot more beating, I got it to go over. But as it went it shot off the stump back at me! I was unhurt, but it shook me up good and I learned that the sloping back cut didn't help prevent barber chair.
I've had plenty of screw ups myself, been lucky many times! Had to "fence post" a 24" Oak once, scariest damn thing I've ever done! I missed my face and dropped it into another tree. I've learned to be more precise!
I've done more dumb #### than I can even recall, much less want to recall! My point being this is dangerous stuff, even if you do everything right, by the book, as it was explained etc., at the end of the day, that tree is going to do what that tree wants to! There is always going to be something you didn't foresee or expect. Head winds, tail winds, twist from weight on one side or the other.
No one cut is best, no one cut is a cure all. I use a 90 deg open face as much as I can anymore, because it's easy and with my broken back I have to make things as easy as I can. I've also been doing something that's going to bite me in the ass one day soon, I've been making the back cut even with the bottom of my face. It's not right, but puts wood on the trailer fast, keeps the stumps low for my skidsteer and I don't trip over them! I've got to change that method and I know it, but I just love that damn smooth low stump! We all do dumb things, and we all get into patterns we like, but we have to remember there are more tools in the tool box and sometimes we all need to pull our heads out of our butts!

Thanks........now I don't feel so bad for doing dumb stuff. But I'm headed to 70 so I got an excuse. Thanks a lot for the heads up too. :help:

 

[zogger]

For what it's worth, I use both. It's probably because I haven't learned to use plastic wedges correctly, but there's something I find almost primal and deeply satisfying about beating on steel at the base of a big tree.

I use wood, steel and plastic. I've been using just hardwood home made wedges for decades. then I started using old axe and maul heads, yard sale stuff. You can really wallop on them things. (only for larger trees, which I have done *some* but not many) I just last year bought my first plastic wedge. Ya they work but many dollars for 25 cents plastic is rather annoying. I'm going to buy some more but it still annoys me. Seems like 25 cent plastic..at a buck they would be fair priced. Must be because they are a niche item, so guys just pay it. They want something they can use and know they won't hurt the chain.

Various felling cuts and techniques and what not..I for sure have never ever seen any offering for training/schools/seminars/hands on, etc, except get a saw and go cut wood. I never ever saw even a chainsaw manual with a few ratty drawings in it until a few years ago. And I have seen other guys using as much sloping cuts as flat looking cuts, never seemed to be any big deal one way or the other the way it was being done. I remember asking a long long time ago, why the flat cuts on the big trees, guys told me they got a better price for the logs, etc..absolutely no mention of safety in felling or anything like that. I actually thought it was more dangerous that way, the flat cuts all around, but they just wanted the money!

In other words, ignorance is no excuse, but if that is all you have ever seen, who's to know different? You are ignorant of being ignorant! I sure didn't. I am about 99% just self taught, starting with handsaws and axes then getting into chainsaws. Yep, watched older guys cut and worked with them, still saw sloping backcuts on some trees.

*shrugs* glad I finally can find out some better ways to do things.

I bingoed to a tug line years ago, a lot of mine I will throw a line and a comelaong on them..who knows..this might be wrong as well. Working by yourself...uhh...that's wrong too.

 

[woodlot30]

After reading this thread I came across this tree. It was what you would call a heavy leaner! I don't use a bore cut very often but did on this one!

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[woodlot30]

 

[zogger]

After reading this thread I came across this tree. It was what you would call a heavy leaner! I don't use a bore cut very often but did on this one!

View attachment 229733
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That's interesting. Did you wedge that bore cut on both sides before cutting the holding strap on the back cut?

 

[hardpan]

I use wood, steel and plastic. I've been using just hardwood home made wedges for decades. then I started using old axe and maul heads, yard sale stuff. You can really wallop on them things. (only for larger trees, which I have done *some* but not many) I just last year bought my first plastic wedge. Ya they work but many dollars for 25 cents plastic is rather annoying. I'm going to buy some more but it still annoys me. Seems like 25 cent plastic..at a buck they would be fair priced. Must be because they are a niche item, so guys just pay it. They want something they can use and know they won't hurt the chain.

Various felling cuts and techniques and what not..I for sure have never ever seen any offering for training/schools/seminars/hands on, etc, except get a saw and go cut wood. I never ever saw even a chainsaw manual with a few ratty drawings in it until a few years ago. And I have seen other guys using as much sloping cuts as flat looking cuts, never seemed to be any big deal one way or the other the way it was being done. I remember asking a long long time ago, why the flat cuts on the big trees, guys told me they got a better price for the logs, etc..absolutely no mention of safety in felling or anything like that. I actually thought it was more dangerous that way, the flat cuts all around, but they just wanted the money!

In other words, ignorance is no excuse, but if that is all you have ever seen, who's to know different? You are ignorant of being ignorant! I sure didn't. I am about 99% just self taught, starting with handsaws and axes then getting into chainsaws. Yep, watched older guys cut and worked with them, still saw sloping backcuts on some trees.

*shrugs* glad I finally can find out some better ways to do things.

I bingoed to a tug line years ago, a lot of mine I will throw a line and a comelaong on them..who knows..this might be wrong as well. Working by yourself...uhh...that's wrong too.

"Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement". --Will Rogers
Many times the trial and error method includes pain and blood so it is sure nice to have the direction of a few pros. My thanks to them.

 

[woodlot30]

That's interesting. Did you wedge that bore cut on both sides before cutting the holding strap on the back cut?

No need. I dropped the tree in the direction of the lean. What would be the purpose of the wedges besides the obvious?