Barber chair!

[jropo]

And tell me this. I cut trees everyday for about 2 years and putting um on the truck. Mostly old growth pine, 24 inches and wider at the base. Of all I cut I never cut a face cut and could just about put every tree where I wanted and never had that long splinter thing happen. I just started cutting in the back and cut and directed the tree where I wanted. I cut at an slight angle down from back to front. Whenever I start notching and getting fancy I get in trouble. I once cut a face notch then went to the back side to finish. The tree started moving kinda weird. I laid the saw, an 041 AV, down behind the tree to try and guide the tree by hand. As the tree fell it slide backward off the stump and onto my saw. Needless to saw that one died and I had to go buy another one. Now why did that tree kick back off the stump?

I don't know what happined in your case, but I have see this before.

But in my case I was taking down a big group of essentally spring poles that was knocked over when some one dumped a big tree on them while logging.
I did have pics of the mess before and after but I can't find them now and if I do find them I will post.
It was about 12 trees all together it looked like the big blowdowns they have in PNW, but much, much smaller.
It was like a dangerious game of pickup sticks. Study, and read the wood before you even start the saw.

View attachment 225454

View attachment 225455

Every thing was top locked so I had to take them out at the knees. (Jump them back) It was like a big dome.
If these were logs I would of been screued since I had to take a few spars off the butts to get the whole mess down.

 

[Preston]

No, it's no joke. I bout killed myself. It has been about 42 years ago so I really don't remember just what I did, but seems like I did cut through the tree to soon. As for training, didn't know there was such a think when it came to cutting a tree.

 

[Walt41]

No, it's no joke. I bout killed myself. It has been about 42 years ago so I really don't remember just what I did, but seems like I did cut through the tree to soon. As for training, didn't know there was such a think when it came to cutting a tree.

There is and it is never too late to get some, I was fortunate enough to get a little from a retired forester at a young age and cut enough easy ones before getting on to the dangerous ones. Keep in mind you can die from a mistake with a tree, don't matter if it is your fourth or four thousandth, as soon as you compromise safety, bad things happen.

 

[forestryworks]

There is and it is never too late to get some, I was fortunate enough to get a little from a retired forester at a young age and cut enough easy ones before getting on to the dangerous ones. Keep in mind you can die from a mistake with a tree, don't matter if it is your fourth or four thousandth, as soon as you compromise safety, bad things happen.

Tree size doesn't matter either.

The small ones will hurt you just as bad as a big one.

 

[Walt41]

Tree size doesn't matter either.

The small ones will hurt you just as bad as a big one.

Yep, old fella that trained me up liked to throw out examples from his life, for size he used to say " last time I thought something small was harmless was when a 125lb ex boxer broke my nose" mind you this guy was about 6' 4" and 280ish and not fat.

 

[TreePointer]

And tell me this. I cut trees everyday for about 2 years and putting um on the truck. Mostly old growth pine, 24 inches and wider at the base. Of all I cut I never cut a face cut and could just about put every tree where I wanted and never had that long splinter thing happen. I just started cutting in the back and cut and directed the tree where I wanted. I cut at an slight angle down from back to front. Whenever I start notching and getting fancy I get in trouble. I once cut a face notch then went to the back side to finish. The tree started moving kinda weird. I laid the saw, an 041 AV, down behind the tree to try and guide the tree by hand. As the tree fell it slide backward off the stump and onto my saw. Needless to saw that one died and I had to go buy another one. Now why did that tree kick back off the stump?

You've been lucky. The lack of face cut or notch increases the likelihood of a barberchair. You are also less likely to control the direction of fall.

A proper face cut and backcut takes a little practice, but it will give you the most control and safety. Note that I wrote "proper." The face cut has to be of proper depth, direction, and the top and bottom cuts must meet in a vertex (avoid a dutchman). The backcut must be at the proper height above the vertex. Between the face cut and back cut you must leave enough HOLDING WOOD to control the direction of fall and prevent other disasters.

You shouldn't have to guide a tree by hand. That's why we make a PROPER CUT and use WEDGES.

Stihl Video Library - Chain Saw Safety, Operation & Maintenance Chapter 10: Felling

 

[slowp]

I'll post this again. This was a blowdown. The firewood cutters made the mistake of starting at the small end, instead of starting near the rootwad and stablizing the tree more. They got a few loads before it scared them.

View attachment 225467

 

[dingeryote]

Thanks for the ratchet strap tip, I will keep that in mind.

Can anyone explain why a too-deep face cut makes barber chair more likely? I've been thinking about that and I can't dope it out - it seems like a deeper face cut would relieve the difference between the compression and tension sides and make it less likely, but I'm sure that must not be it.

Woodheat.

Grab a handfull of soda straws and bend them a little between your two hands. Trees are vertical stacks of fibers. The bend is "Weight" or lean.

The straws on the weighted side are compressed. The straws on the back side are under tension and resisting stretch.
Trees grow specialized fiberous tissues to better resist stretch and compression forces, like we build muscle...sort of, in order to resist gravity.

Now make a mental too deep face cut into that bundle of straws on the compression side. You have just created a fulcrum, leaving all of the trees weight, and leverage from length, to the tension side of the straws. Wood fibers aren't too elastic, so the shearing force between fibers at the point of the fulcrum are going to be insanely high and break the fibers apart at that point, as soon as the outside most tension fibers are relieved(Back cut) of pressure, and from there, gravity does the rest.

The "Hinge" created by the cut isn't just a hinge. It's also a fulcrum for a really long lever with many tons of force on the end of it.
"You want the fulcrum to be just 2 red cat hairs past balance point".

Dunno if it makes sense, but that is the way it was explained to me.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote

 

[zogger]

Try it, moron. Maybe you can make it work.




For the rest of you guys...this cut works best with a large head leaner. I've had good luck with the triangle method but the T would probably work just as well.

Thanks to Gary for the diagram.

Thanks for the drawing man! I looked at some other threads on this last night, and I was puzzled, I thought there wasn't a face cut, just the sides and back cut. I was going WTF???

Much clearer now. the side cuts are parallel to the lean, and aren't notches, just cuts, and get wedges, correct? And the face cut is a normal notch, just not terribly deep? I know it is a judgement call, being on the compression side. And your back cut you "approach with authority" and beat feet fast.

I could have used this cut bigtime last month on a heavy big oak leaner. On a hill, leaning downhill hard. It split the trunk but didn't chair off any, but it is def. split up a few feet and jumped the direction of the lean pretty good. I was uphill gaining speed when that thing went, LOL! I did NOT hang around.

I just did a modest face cut and a back cut from two sides on it, and wedged the back once I was in aways, then finished it towards the hinge and..heard a noise, split!! I didn't gather any cobwebs!

I like that triangle, loads more wood to hold stuff as you cut to the hinge.

I need to learn a lot more about this. My boss has a shavings mill almost done, and I am hoping to be able to be the pine supplier off the property here, we have thousands of them, some hugemongous. We go through tractor trailer loads of shavings every six weeks, he is current;y having to buy them, this would save him ton$ of loot, plus make me some extra.

I'm taking it slow and easy and walking away from harder ones still. Working my way up. Getting more familiar with dealing with larger trees and different/difficult situations. Doing more research, etc. I have to be self taught on this so..safety is job #1 and stuff.

There aren't that many logging crews around here and it is mostly mechanized now anyway AFAIk talking to the saw shop folks, so I don't have any nearby way to learn from more experienced guys on the job for big timber type stuff. Most of the ground cutting here is tops for firewood and a LOT of storm cleanup and arborist tree work. No big hand felling in other words.

 

[Preston]

I guess it's sorta like me being an X ironworker, folks used to ask me all the time 'aren't afraid of going up there 200 or more feet in the air. I always said no, that I'd probably be just as dead falling from 30 feet and 200. So what's the big difference in the other 170 feet. Ironwork was my comfort zone.

 

[jropo]

My Neighbor's chair he made.
A face might of saved him a pair of skibbies:bang:
View attachment 225468

 

[Preston]

I have been one fortunate fool. I've never made a face cut and never had that happen. But like I said, I did have one slide off the stump backwards and eat my saw. :msp_mad: That 041 was one fantastic saw. It would handle any tree chain first. But case first never works.

 

[Chris-PA]

Woodheat.

Grab a handfull of soda straws and bend them a little between your two hands. Trees are vertical stacks of fibers. The bend is "Weight" or lean.

The straws on the weighted side are compressed. The straws on the back side are under tension and resisting stretch.
Trees grow specialized fiberous tissues to better resist stretch and compression forces, like we build muscle...sort of, in order to resist gravity.

Now make a mental too deep face cut into that bundle of straws on the compression side. You have just created a fulcrum, leaving all of the trees weight, and leverage from length, to the tension side of the straws. Wood fibers aren't too elastic, so the shearing force between fibers at the point of the fulcrum are going to be insanely high and break the fibers apart at that point, as soon as the outside most tension fibers are relieved(Back cut) of pressure, and from there, gravity does the rest.

The "Hinge" created by the cut isn't just a hinge. It's also a fulcrum for a really long lever with many tons of force on the end of it.
"You want the fulcrum to be just 2 red cat hairs past balance point".

Dunno if it makes sense, but that is the way it was explained to me.

Stay safe!
Dingeryote

If you think of the leaner before it's cut, the fibers on the back are stretched (tension) and the ones on the face are compressed. If you just sink a saw in the back you are relieving the tension on the fibers you cut. The weight of the top is now supported by fewer fibers and the face is under more compression - so it wants to curl more. The severed fibers don't want to curl, they want to straighten out - they're not under tension any more and they're not holding the top up, but they're still attached to it and "glued" to the back of the still-intact face fibers. When that bond fails it does not fail in shear (sliding), it pops perpendicular to the trunk as the face curls and the back straightens out. As the bond breaks there is less support keeping the front from bending, so it curls more and the top leans more. So more bonds break and the crack propagates. Assuming the hinge does not break, then if at some point the force up that crack is enough to break it then it all comes down from there.

But I still haven't worked out why the face cut makes this worse - maybe because it pushes the hinge back toward wider wood and makes it less likely to break first? Clearly if the hinge goes before the crack happens then everything is OK.

Interesting problem - part of my curiosity is that I cut a lot of leaning trees. Understanding the mechanics of it always helps me to visualize and improves my ability to anticipate.

 

[turnkey4099]

Another one with a WTF! factor. Eye that undercut.

http://www.youtube.com/v/A9j6GpNJZ_c&hl

Harry K

 

[jropo]

I can't figure out how to capture clips off dvd and I'm sure I'm not suppost too, but Ax Men Season 2 Disk 2 "Lost in the Fog" Levi Brown did a good demo on a Barber Chair and almost lost a saw in the process.

 

[darkbyrd]

Another one with a WTF! factor. Eye that undercut.

http://www.youtube.com/v/A9j6GpNJZ_c&hl

Harry K

"Where's it gonna go!? Where's it gonna go?!"

I love the dude at the end, like it landed right where he wanted it.

 

[branchbuzzer]

"Where's it gonna go!? Where's it gonna go?!"

I love the dude at the end, like it landed right where he wanted it.

Yep, like he chaired it on purpose to condense the LZ.....

 

[darkbyrd]

Yep, like he chaired it on purpose to condense the LZ.....

If it could be controlled, that would be a handy technique!

 

[logbutcher]

Try it, moron. Maybe you can make it work.

Gee willikers boy, you got some panties wet or what ? It all depends..............
Poor Gologit , gets worked up sitting on his butt all day.
Anyhow, gotta be careful with this boy, he'll whine to mommie here if his feelings are hurt. I've been to his banned camp. :hmm3grin2orange:

Nice diagram, thanks. :msp_thumbup: We rarely use those cuts on our smaller Eastern trees, usually on leaners or rotten, with wedges. In fact, one of those is ripe for boring into the middle with wedges on either side directing the fall. Yes, "boring". No real name for that method...yet. Most of our hardwoods are too small DBH ( < 30" ) to get that fancy .

Nice to read some intelligent explanations, most who are able and willing to learn something new, and who don't have the baby need to name call. Thanks.

 

[lumberjack48]

What you call a Coos Bay cut, i call a Box cut. I used this style cut 30 yrs, i fell about 500 to 700 trees a week, never had a chair using it.

I never used the bore cut or a wedge, i didn't own a wedge.