Stock Appearing Race Saws

[buck futter]

Well I have a 2 357 tops and 1 357 bottom and 1 359 bottom and top. I guess I will do some playing.


Man

 

[Crofter]

Buck, can you measure to see what the difference in crankcase volume between the two cranks. It would be interesting to know how much it changes the ratio. I dont know how well sealed the fillers are to the crank. Some experiments have been done where it is possible to vary the volume of the base and length of the intake runner. Provision was made to either motor or drive the engine to isolate the influence of the exhaust in crankcase filling. It makes it hard to experiment with things on a saw when you have to grind away metal. Backing up is very expensive!

 

[Chopwood]

Fred, clean out your PMs.

 

[Mr.]

so a 359 top on a 357 bottom will be the best combination for a muffler saw.



Man

I think alot of the hubbub around the 357/359 hybrid is just that hubbub.

Too many variances to decifer the origination of any quantifiable difference.

1. transfers are not of similar configuration.
2. not the same bore.
.......

There are alot of more aimiable tests that might yield good data that could be performed..........

Fred

 

[Crofter]

I thought what Buck was proposing to do amounted to running the stuffer belled crank of the 357 as opposed to the bare crank of the 359 with each of the cylinder / piston combos. Not perfect to isolate the effect of Crankcase volume because of the effect also on most desireable port timing, but cannot see how it would be less than an aimiable exercise.

 

[Mr.]

I thought what Buck was proposing to do amounted to running the stuffer belled crank of the 357 as opposed to the bare crank of the 359 with each of the cylinder / piston combos. Not perfect to isolate the effect of Crankcase volume because of the effect also on most desireable port timing, but cannot see how it would be less than an aimiable exercise.

Hell, do they teach english in Blind River? I said' "more aimiable."

It's hard to take your thoughts with a grain of salt when you can't understand the language.

Wait is Blind River French Canada? That would explain........

Fred

 

[Crofter]

Hell, do they teach english in Blind River? I said' "more aimiable."

It's hard to take your thoughts with a grain of salt when you can't understand the language.

Wait is Blind River French Canada? That would explain........

Fred

Fred, you silver tongued devil! Hardly anyone could pick the ad hominum attack out of this post of yours! It is quite a piece of work!

 

[Mr.]

What does ad hominum mean?

Fred

 

[timberwolf]

A wise farmer once told me the rooster who crows too much ends up in a pot of hot water.

 

[Crofter]

What does ad hominum mean?

Fred

Pardon my French,

"Introduction to Ad Hominem Fallacies
One of the most common non-rational appeals is an argumentum ad hominem--or, as the Latin phrase suggests, an "argument against the person" (and not against the ideas he or she is presenting). Our decisions should be based on a rational evaluation of the arguments with which we are presented, not on an emotional reaction to the person or persons making that argument. But because we often react more strongly to personalities than to the sometimes abstract and complex arguments they are making, ad hominem appeals are often very effective with someone who is not thinking critically".

 

[Mr.]

I thought what Buck was proposing to do amounted to running the stuffer belled crank of the 357 as opposed to the bare crank of the 359 with each of the cylinder / piston combos. Not perfect to isolate the effect of Crankcase volume because of the effect also on most desireable port timing, but cannot see how it would be less than an aimiable exercise.

Using the 359 topend on both the 357 and 359 bottom end could give you quantifiable evidence, but you are limited by husky's design (of the 357 crank), which is less than optimal in my opinion.

This would be the test to do, not to just repeat what we've seen.

Buck did not state how or in what manner he would be testing. I assumed he would do it the way I have outlined, but assummed you would be happy with the status quo set forth so many months ago.

Fred

 

[Mr.]

Pardon my French,

"Introduction to Ad Hominem Fallacies
One of the most common non-rational appeals is an argumentum ad hominem--or, as the Latin phrase suggests, an "argument against the person" (and not against the ideas he or she is presenting). Our decisions should be based on a rational evaluation of the arguments with which we are presented, not on an emotional reaction to the person or persons making that argument. But because we often react more strongly to personalities than to the sometimes abstract and complex arguments they are making, ad hominem appeals are often very effective with someone who is not thinking critically".

Latin you can do, but the English seems rusty. Something is starting to smell.:notrolls2:

I can't resist. French???? HAHAHAHAHA

Fred

 

[Crofter]

I dont know exactly what buck was planning to do, so we were both making assumptions there. Seemed to me it would be basically trying to examine crancase volume to displacement ratio as separately as possible from other influences, which is what a good part of the discussion was about. You seem to be fighting the phantom of some other experiment that was done by another builder. I dont know what the outcome of that was but you seem to be having some flashbacks about it. My, My what intrigue. Quite a piece of work!

What a tangled web we weave,
when first we practice to deceive!

 

[Mr.]

What a tangled web we weave,
when first we practice to deceive!

To what do I owe this non sequitur? Whom or to what end did I try to decieve?

Fred

 

[Mr.]

Now back to our regularly scheduled event....

The most intersting thing about this 272 is the exhaust port. I know alot of guys have seen an exhaust port done by Ace Morgan. They are a work of art.

Hopefully I can snap a pic tomorrow and post it.

Seriously, I have never really put too much stock by what convention says, but until saws are built that outrun these 10+ year old saws I will keep on believing that these guys know more than I do. i.e. Boedecker and MVP.

Fred

 

[buck futter]

Using the 359 topend on both the 357 and 359 bottom end could give you quantifiable evidence, but you are limited by husky's design (of the 357 crank), which is less than optimal in my opinion.


This is somewhat what I was planning but I don't know which would provide the best comparison.

359 top 357 bottom
359 top and bottom
357 top and bottom
357 top and 359 bottom
I have the last scenario but I never optimized it, basically I slightly widened the intake an exhaust ports pulled the base gasket and restored the exhaust duration. It turns about 14-14.5k and is very torquey.

I have a stock 357 and 359 top to do this experiment with. If I did any porting on them it would likely skew the results.
Although I would probably want a comparison and would port them as part of the test.

So If I was going to go forward with this test what do you guys think would give the best evidence or results.

 

[timberwolf]

The 359/357 experiment would be interesting, but I might suggest it won't realy get to the hart of the matter.

If the 357 jug was paired up with the 359 crank and it cut slower it would not be conclusive in establishing that a larger base lowers output. Yes it is likely to lower output on that jug which I am thinking is optimized by husky engineers for the reduced base volume, but how would the 357 jug do with the 359 crank and base if the porting on the 357 jug was optimized for a 359 crank and base.

Or on the other side of the coin, putting a 359 jug on the 357 crank and case would not be conclusive if it cut slower with the smaller base volume. What would happen if the porting on the 359 was modified to work best with the reduced volume.

As was mentioned the differences in porting and displacement between the two saws would make drawing conclusions difficult. Also the effects of the crank bells on performance aspects beyond the direct effect of case volume are unknowns.

I think to really conclude anything with a high degree of certainty it would be necessary to take a saw and run a series of tests progressively reducing and enlarging the case volume directly without affecting the crank while optimizing the porting for the case volume at each test point. Maybe worthwhile to do the same testing with pipe as well, as I would expect the ideal base volume would deviate from muffler to pipe, there is no reason that it shouldn't as the charging influence of the pipe changes what goes on in the intake and base significantly.

It would be a major effort to do this experiment and in controlled enough conditions to get good data. In my opinion this is where computer modeling shines. It is possible to run many different engine configurations and get data that has a fairly good reliability, all based on well established science and engineering principals. That which can be produced through mathematical modeling is likely much more reliable than what any of us could produce outside laboratory conditions, (it is also much eaiser to do than wreck a pile of jugs trying different porting combinations.) Then from the computer predictions a few tests could be conducted to confirm that the real world results match the predictions.

 

[Mr.]

I agree with most of what TW said. Really.

It will settle the arguement on this one mating though. Not really. LOL

Fred

 

[drmiller100]

my brandy new 900 dollar laptop cracked its screen, and it took me a few days to reserect the old turd with broken usb ports.
so,no photos yet.

flywheels. i continue to argue that the horspowr fanned by the fans on teh flywheel is not gonna be measurable.

i'm gonna go one further. it seems to me that in a 3 cut race, a larger flywheel would be nice.
1. you get to store energy as you come down on the first cut.
2. the stored energy covers a few screw ups mid log.
3. you get stored energy in changeover.

it takes ZERO horsepower to keep a large flywheel spinning. it does take some to accelerate it up, but it seems like there is plenty of time as you lift the saw to spin it up.
i've never raced though, so am listening to my elders.

 

[drmiller100]

You have always been picking at my posts from day one, I don't need to go and show where and how, I think that is well enough known. I think you get off on it, well what ever turns your crank, full circle or not.

If it is working for you stick with it by all means, when I get the chance I will put together my findings on the matter and you can take someting or nothing at all from it. Makes absolutly no difference to me.

the first paragraph is an example of ad hominum. means "against the man" or something like that.

teh second paragraph is an example of drivel.