Young, Dumb & want the Bling!!
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Part of the difficulty in generating employee loyalty comes from media reports of companies laying off thousands of employees and then the CEO gets a big bonus.
The big corporations (in general) have not demonstrated a lot of loyalty to their people which has led to a great deal of cynicism among the lower level employees. IMHO it leads to an me first attitude. This attitude is reinforced by many athletes, such as TO, Plaxico Burress, Chad Johnson.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
That is what i mean by winnow the chaff. fi they do not work in the probie period tell them thanks, but no thanks....after youv'e hired someone else.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
I think it is mostly that people do not understand the physical nature of the job, and/or really don not know what they want to do. Seems like very few people who start in the trade stick with it for a very long time.
ropensaddle
Feel Lucky
The nature of promoting nephews,cousins and buddies in corporations
I understand very well and hate.
tree mds, I dont really find firing people that enjoyable unless they`re just a plain loser from the get go!!
the kid has ambition a smart mouth and very little commonsense as far as life, work, business, taxes, & just plain making a living are concerned!!
I could fire him...Yep & then hire another one worse, better or the same! as far as showing up, doing what he`s told (only when told) goes he does so so! he is just always thinking about how much less he could do to make more!! I told him you are in the wrong line of work....you need to be a politician!
I kinda do things from "feel" he`s not a total waste, but is he able to come around? not meaning to do everything the way I want it done but just in general work ethic... no one but me does it the way I want it done & even then Ill learn I should of done it differently from time to time!!
Ill see & feel it out, better to give someone a chance & watch them better themselves than to fire them when maybe they were just starting to come around, either way.....it will happen after the first of the year Im not gonna fire anyone this time of year!!
LXT...............
the kid has ambition a smart mouth and very little commonsense as far as life, work, business, taxes, & just plain making a living are concerned!!
I could fire him...Yep & then hire another one worse, better or the same! as far as showing up, doing what he`s told (only when told) goes he does so so! he is just always thinking about how much less he could do to make more!! I told him you are in the wrong line of work....you need to be a politician!
I kinda do things from "feel" he`s not a total waste, but is he able to come around? not meaning to do everything the way I want it done but just in general work ethic... no one but me does it the way I want it done & even then Ill learn I should of done it differently from time to time!!
Ill see & feel it out, better to give someone a chance & watch them better themselves than to fire them when maybe they were just starting to come around, either way.....it will happen after the first of the year Im not gonna fire anyone this time of year!!
LXT...............
ropensaddle
Feel Lucky
I never enjoy firing anyone unless they are mistaking kindness for weakness
then it's game on! I once had a guy hire on when I was a foreman for power
line trimming. He went through the ten mile application peed in the cup and
worked his azz off running with brush etc and said I love this job I can't
wait for Monday. Monday comes around then Tuesday, Wednesday no
call no show so I typed up a lengthy retirement letter and sent it to him
with his one day check + 25 cent retirement
Bigus Termitius
Addicted to ArboristSite
My ex super once told me to be happy to keep 1 in 10 over a year.
In this industry, you have to want it.
Something has to burn from within, fuel the fire.
Then you have to be able to apply it, and get some traction to make it go.
It takes heart, mind, body, and soul.
The problem with most of today's youth is that their every aspect is poisoned to some degree or another.
Their reality is artificial, their imagination...spoon fed. Their drive in disarray, soul short circuited, and physique fizzled.
In this industry, you have to want it.
Something has to burn from within, fuel the fire.
Then you have to be able to apply it, and get some traction to make it go.
It takes heart, mind, body, and soul.
The problem with most of today's youth is that their every aspect is poisoned to some degree or another.
Their reality is artificial, their imagination...spoon fed. Their drive in disarray, soul short circuited, and physique fizzled.
it is much harder to find a good honest fair paying employer than it is to find a good honest hard working young man. i know a fair amount of good young men including myself that just cant find and employer on the same level. stop looking for inexperienced young slaves and start paying for some good help otherwise stop
& sh the f ^, go do it by yourself. look @ it like your saving money
& sh the f ^, go do it by yourself. look @ it like your saving money
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Bigus Termitius
Addicted to ArboristSite
it is much harder to find a good honest fair paying employer than it is to find a good honest hard working young man. i know a fair amount of good young men including myself that just cant find and employer on the same level. stop looking for inexperienced young slaves and start paying for some good help otherwise stop
Every crew needs the occasional inexperienced young slave.
I'm looking to go out on my own this next year. I'm hoping to be that good honest fair paying employer...because they are indeed hard to find.
I'll require something in return. That is one of the concerns of this thread, finding something worth paying for.
Working on the side this year has taught me a great deal. I have a good crew during the week, but they are inclined to be prima donnas on the weekend and attempt to wage the dog with their hit and miss availability.
Calling in cause they need to watch the dog for the parents (when the college girl friend is in town) and what not, doesn't cut it to complete contracts on time.
So they thought they could put me, and the contracts I worked hard to get for us, off to another weekend more convenient. Well, I went out and subbed some help and did what I had to on my own to git er done.
Now, you can tell they are a little salty cause I didn't wait on them to grace me with their presence...and that bit of extra cash they thought was in the wing is in my bank account and invested in equipment.
You snooze, you lose.
Good help when they want to be there, useless when they are not. And I was paying them twice what they are worth as groundies. They could make more on the weekend than during the week!
Thus paying the good help good money is sometimes a shot in the dark as well. Does it make them fat, dumb, and happy? A little too aloof?
I worked an inexperienced "slave" for quite a bit less and got more done with him.
Why? Because he wanted it.
treemandan
Tree Freak
Ropes? R U O K ?
Wiredp
ArboristSite Member
Generational Change
In the past couple days of being laid off by the tree company that I have been working for I was thinking. I feel that one of the reason it is hard for you guys to get good help is because in our society these days there is the push for everyone to go to college. That wasn't always the case, but it is in my generation. That means that even kids who might after high school have just gone to work for a tree company have been pushed to go to college. Many of these people would be those motivated groundies who see this as the career they want and serve as great employees. They no longer are taking that avenue because everybody has to go to college. I went to college, the reason I do this is because I want to learn, but to be honest I can't afford to do it. With the high cost of college, after school it is hard for kids to take that bottom level job. I am not trying to make it seem like every jackass kid out there should be wanting higher pay just that some of us have no choice.
Disclaimer:
This is in no way intended to make it seem like all tree folk or dumb because I am sure that many of you are smarter then I am. I know that most of you have a set of skills that I don't and I am envious of that fact. I hope this does not come across wrong but I would be interested to know how many tree folks went to college. The company I worked for had both types the old timer who didn't go to college and learned it all in the field and his son who went to college for urban forestry.
I just feel that there was a change where people don't respect the manual trades anymore and that this field is losing people because of it. It is no longer acceptable just to be a hard working guy (or lady) anymore.
I am sorry that I did not express that very well, but I hope you start to understand what I am saying.
In the past couple days of being laid off by the tree company that I have been working for I was thinking. I feel that one of the reason it is hard for you guys to get good help is because in our society these days there is the push for everyone to go to college. That wasn't always the case, but it is in my generation. That means that even kids who might after high school have just gone to work for a tree company have been pushed to go to college. Many of these people would be those motivated groundies who see this as the career they want and serve as great employees. They no longer are taking that avenue because everybody has to go to college. I went to college, the reason I do this is because I want to learn, but to be honest I can't afford to do it. With the high cost of college, after school it is hard for kids to take that bottom level job. I am not trying to make it seem like every jackass kid out there should be wanting higher pay just that some of us have no choice.
Disclaimer:
This is in no way intended to make it seem like all tree folk or dumb because I am sure that many of you are smarter then I am. I know that most of you have a set of skills that I don't and I am envious of that fact. I hope this does not come across wrong but I would be interested to know how many tree folks went to college. The company I worked for had both types the old timer who didn't go to college and learned it all in the field and his son who went to college for urban forestry.
I just feel that there was a change where people don't respect the manual trades anymore and that this field is losing people because of it. It is no longer acceptable just to be a hard working guy (or lady) anymore.
I am sorry that I did not express that very well, but I hope you start to understand what I am saying.
ropensaddle
Feel Lucky
y r u
In the past couple days of being laid off by the tree company that I have been working for I was thinking. I feel that one of the reason it is hard for you guys to get good help is because in our society these days there is the push for everyone to go to college. That wasn't always the case, but it is in my generation. That means that even kids who might after high school have just gone to work for a tree company have been pushed to go to college. Many of these people would be those motivated groundies who see this as the career they want and serve as great employees. They no longer are taking that avenue because everybody has to go to college. I went to college, the reason I do this is because I want to learn, but to be honest I can't afford to do it. With the high cost of college, after school it is hard for kids to take that bottom level job. I am not trying to make it seem like every jackass kid out there should be wanting higher pay just that some of us have no choice.
Disclaimer:
This is in no way intended to make it seem like all tree folk or dumb because I am sure that many of you are smarter then I am. I know that most of you have a set of skills that I don't and I am envious of that fact. I hope this does not come across wrong but I would be interested to know how many tree folks went to college. The company I worked for had both types the old timer who didn't go to college and learned it all in the field and his son who went to college for urban forestry.
I just feel that there was a change where people don't respect the manual trades anymore and that this field is losing people because of it. It is no longer acceptable just to be a hard working guy (or lady) anymore.
Came across Fine!! & I do agree with you, today emphasis is put on college..I know cause my Daughter is in college & I push education hard!! For girls/women its kinda different I guess, I mean how many want to do tree work?
the trades are not pushed so hard cause those of us in them see & know whats coming!! work harder for less, always givebacks to keep your job & not to mention illegals undermining the pay!!, etc.. So even we push college onto our kids not wanting them to end up like us!
in many ways its not this generations fault.....it`s the parents fault!! always wanting better for their kids..............Its gonna change soon!
LXT............
ropensaddle
Feel Lucky
The truth is college students end up having to work if
there is no suited other white color jobs. Education has ruined the
world in my opinion for instance nuclear,bio warfare is just a matter
of time before some turban wearing radical uses a dirty bomb on our
society! If everyone would have been more like Indians we would have
been better off. I will not push anything on kids I will just share my experiance that hard work is not as fun as it looks! My grandson
wants to run my business at five I will not encourage it but if his interest
stays focused on it he will get that chance by working and learning
and then inheriting it!
Sikhs, who are Indian and live in the Punjab, wear turbans. Islamics, who I believe you are slandering, wear other forms of headdress.
Bermie
Addicted to ArboristSite
No offence taken and I think you made some good points.
I went to Agricultural College after two years of apprenticeship after graduating from an extremely high achieving academic high school. I have also returned to college several times during my career to upgrade my skills or learn something new, and intend to continue education whenever I can.
What's my point? I could have gone into law, or medicine or international business but I preferred to make my career in Horticulture, and now Arboriculture because that's where my interest lay, not 9-5ing in an office. But some people only see my work boots and hiviz shirt, not the understanding and science behind what we do for a career.
I spent four years teaching in the Applied Science division of our local college, yes, I have teaching qualifications, the trades are always seen as the poor stepchildren and WHY? Who builds the big swanky office buildings, installs the drywall, the plumbing, electricity, security, fire control systems, HVAC, the inter/intranet communications systems, the interior and exterior landscaping...and who do they call when it all goes wrong? NOT the accountant or lawyer!!!! Its a different skill set, applied, and JUST as valuable.
There is a place for everyone in society and I have a BIG pet peeve with those who say...'oh well he's not very academic so he can get a trade.' What, a tradesman doesn't have to read, comprehend, estimate, imagine, visualize, build, maintain, repair...if you saw some of the numpties we got sent to Tech Hall...couldn't read a rule, sort out a box of socket heads, almost unable to fill out an application form, all because they were deemed 'not academic' so go learn a trade. We even got told that physics was not a necessary course for Tech students to take...are you kidding me? These kids were failed by the system...deemed not academic and so allowed to fail or had expectaions lowered and consequently fell through the cracks...real sad, because it is a huge shock when they come to learn a trade either on the job or at a college and realize they still need maths, science, and english to get ahead!
Every child needs a good grounding in the basics, and some will 'get it' much better if they can do something applied rather than something abstract. It doesn't mean they are not as intelligent, just a different skill set and they all need to feel valued whatever choice they make for a career. A good grounding will serve well for your entire life, whether you start by going to college or take 20 years before you go, or are a self starter entrepreneur.
I could go on, but suffice to say we all have the 'problem' of overcoming the stereotype of the dirty tradesman, as if somehow being sweaty and covered in sawdust and oil means you have no brains or somehow were an 'academic underachiever'.
The average suit wearing office worker has no concept of the myriad of things we must comprehend and understand to do our jobs, and whether you got it on-the-job or stated at a college, its an intellegence JUST as valuable as theirs!
For that matter a lot of kids don't get it either, this is NOT a career you can just pick up in a few weeks or months, which was the start of this thread...
Sorry, kinda went on a rant there...I have been involved with trades education for 10 years...still battling the 'perceived' stigma...
I went to Agricultural College after two years of apprenticeship after graduating from an extremely high achieving academic high school. I have also returned to college several times during my career to upgrade my skills or learn something new, and intend to continue education whenever I can.
What's my point? I could have gone into law, or medicine or international business but I preferred to make my career in Horticulture, and now Arboriculture because that's where my interest lay, not 9-5ing in an office. But some people only see my work boots and hiviz shirt, not the understanding and science behind what we do for a career.
I spent four years teaching in the Applied Science division of our local college, yes, I have teaching qualifications, the trades are always seen as the poor stepchildren and WHY? Who builds the big swanky office buildings, installs the drywall, the plumbing, electricity, security, fire control systems, HVAC, the inter/intranet communications systems, the interior and exterior landscaping...and who do they call when it all goes wrong? NOT the accountant or lawyer!!!! Its a different skill set, applied, and JUST as valuable.
There is a place for everyone in society and I have a BIG pet peeve with those who say...'oh well he's not very academic so he can get a trade.' What, a tradesman doesn't have to read, comprehend, estimate, imagine, visualize, build, maintain, repair...if you saw some of the numpties we got sent to Tech Hall...couldn't read a rule, sort out a box of socket heads, almost unable to fill out an application form, all because they were deemed 'not academic' so go learn a trade. We even got told that physics was not a necessary course for Tech students to take...are you kidding me? These kids were failed by the system...deemed not academic and so allowed to fail or had expectaions lowered and consequently fell through the cracks...real sad, because it is a huge shock when they come to learn a trade either on the job or at a college and realize they still need maths, science, and english to get ahead!
Every child needs a good grounding in the basics, and some will 'get it' much better if they can do something applied rather than something abstract. It doesn't mean they are not as intelligent, just a different skill set and they all need to feel valued whatever choice they make for a career. A good grounding will serve well for your entire life, whether you start by going to college or take 20 years before you go, or are a self starter entrepreneur.
I could go on, but suffice to say we all have the 'problem' of overcoming the stereotype of the dirty tradesman, as if somehow being sweaty and covered in sawdust and oil means you have no brains or somehow were an 'academic underachiever'.
The average suit wearing office worker has no concept of the myriad of things we must comprehend and understand to do our jobs, and whether you got it on-the-job or stated at a college, its an intellegence JUST as valuable as theirs!
For that matter a lot of kids don't get it either, this is NOT a career you can just pick up in a few weeks or months, which was the start of this thread...
Sorry, kinda went on a rant there...I have been involved with trades education for 10 years...still battling the 'perceived' stigma...
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ropensaddle
Feel Lucky
Let me rephrase American Indians but I still feel the same
about the foreigner's I know many don't share my feelings
but we should have kept them all out in modern times.
Why because we should take care of native people first
and because it sets the stage for biological agent being
released by allowing such a free border.
oldugly
ArboristSite Operative
This generation starting into the work force right now has more potential for greatness than any, since those who witnessed their parents in the great depression.
They are smarter than we were, more educational opportunities, ask better questions of our society, and more entreprenurial (excuse the spelling please) than we could have ever dreamed. The problem is they see the world as an open canvas for themselves to paint their personal masterpieces, and this gets in the way of us old timers who see the value of hard work and experience.
In the trade profession much can be learned through the educational system and it is great to see Bermie taking such an active role in this, but much needs to be learned through the toil and trials us old timers have endured. The kids today, (apologies to anyone under 30) have grown up with the internet, "instant information" cable news, "instant opinion", and instant credit. It is a small wonder they see a job they CAN learn as something they feel confident they already know. In many ways their confidence is inspiring, yet many times frustrating, because they do not understand the costs, (time, experience, physical wear and tear, and financial) because they see only the paycheck.
The trick is to educate, not condemn, evaluate and not criticize. Their values are different because their lives were different. Most of them never have seen a time when there were 40 applicants for 1 job opening that paid very little over minimum wage. The best thing that can happen to these kids is to fail. Hopefully parents are there to help when it happens.
The young men and women I have seen that have failed at business are some of the most industrious, hard working, and valuable employees ever. This generation has such an opportunity to be great...but of course it depends on how they use it.
They are smarter than we were, more educational opportunities, ask better questions of our society, and more entreprenurial (excuse the spelling please) than we could have ever dreamed. The problem is they see the world as an open canvas for themselves to paint their personal masterpieces, and this gets in the way of us old timers who see the value of hard work and experience.
In the trade profession much can be learned through the educational system and it is great to see Bermie taking such an active role in this, but much needs to be learned through the toil and trials us old timers have endured. The kids today, (apologies to anyone under 30) have grown up with the internet, "instant information" cable news, "instant opinion", and instant credit. It is a small wonder they see a job they CAN learn as something they feel confident they already know. In many ways their confidence is inspiring, yet many times frustrating, because they do not understand the costs, (time, experience, physical wear and tear, and financial) because they see only the paycheck.
The trick is to educate, not condemn, evaluate and not criticize. Their values are different because their lives were different. Most of them never have seen a time when there were 40 applicants for 1 job opening that paid very little over minimum wage. The best thing that can happen to these kids is to fail. Hopefully parents are there to help when it happens.
The young men and women I have seen that have failed at business are some of the most industrious, hard working, and valuable employees ever. This generation has such an opportunity to be great...but of course it depends on how they use it.
