What the heck IS an EPA stove

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This is a great example of how using the wrong terms leads to confusion. Look at the units on the numbers and pick the ones that relate to the characteristics that are important to you.

Setting aside installation, modification and operation issues for the moment - Spidey is primarily concerned about output power, and then wanting to maintain that output rate over a long time period (i.e. average BTU/hr over a several hour period). Efficiency is irrelevant. His secondary combustion stove had a high peak output rate, and it can (eventually) extract more of the energy from the load of wood, but it has a period of lower output rate once the secondary combustion period ends. That was unacceptable to him, so he threw out the coals (which represented a significant amount of energy contained in the original fuel load) while stove was still working on extracting the energy from them and loaded more wood. This reduced his efficiency below what a cmapfire-in-a-box would do.

As he's been told many times, the stove had an insufficient long term rate of energy output for what he wanted it to do, and the install having insufficient thermal mass to store the energy during peak outputs made that worse. As did his unwillingness to make any air adjustments during the burn, and the modification to turn it into a "furnace" where the only heat transfer mechanism (to the house) was by convection/air flow - that pretty much eliminates thermal storage of the heat to smooth out peaks & valleys in the output rate, as air has a low thermal mass.

Add in the expectation of a high, constant temperature in the house and what you need is a whopping big firebox smoke dragon - this gives a lot of stored energy in the fuel load, and the ability to extract energy from it at a high rate over a several hour period with no adjustments. It will lose more of the original energy available in that fuel load up the stack compared to a secondary burn stove of identical fuel capacity (i.e. less efficient in terms of total energy extracted from the fuel), but it may maintain a higher output rate during the whole burn. Basically, it won't be able to extract as much energy from those coals because it will burn them up faster, extracting energy from them at a higher rate and sending more of the energy stored in them up the stack. And then they are not in the way when you add more wood.

Others of us use our stoves differently, have different expectations and different installations. Also, we don't have the same ideological mind blocks causing us to become distracted by the need to fight the forces of evil whenever we see the letters "EPA", thus allowing us to look at a stove more clearly.
 
Well some where along the way I think (in another one of these hell hole threads) spidey made the comment that HIS EPA stove in his application did not work for him and that's is the same for me, MY EPA stove does not work well in MY application.
 
You can say it as many times as you want, but BTUs/hr is NOT a measure of efficiency...

I NEVER SAID IT WAS But you keep reading it that way... (I believe) because you just want to, or maybe just because you believe yourself smarter than me.
And, by-the-way, none of this has anything to do with my stove.

Efficiency is a ratio, often expressed as a percentage... and it can be the ratio of two values based in cost, time, power, or anything else.

Thermal efficiency is the ratio of power input to useful power output.
Furnace #1 rated 60,000 BTU/hr at 90% efficient has an output of 54,000 BTU/hr.
Furnace #2 rated 90,000 BTU/hr at 80% efficient has an output of 72,000 BTU/hr.
Furnace #3 rated 125,000 BTU/hr at 70% efficient has an output of 87,500 BTU/hr.

Heating efficiency is the ratio of required power to useful power output.
If we say my house has a calculated heat loss of 50,000 BTU/hr during the coldest expected temperatures in my climate zone…
Furnace #1 would need to run 56 minutes of every hour, 4 minutes idle time.
Furnace #2 would need to run 42 minutes of every hour, 18 minutes idle time.
Furnace #3 would need to run 34 minutes of every hour, 26 minutes idle time.

Furnace #1) 54,000/50,000 = 108% heating efficient (for my home)
Furnace #2) 72,000/50,000 = 144% heating efficient (for my home)
Furnace #3) 87,500/50,000 = 175% heating efficient (for my home)


So why is heating efficiency important??
Well first, the main idea behind a heating system is comfort… if you ain’t comfortable, nothing else matters.
Second, remember this is calculated on the coldest expected temperatures… so you do need to have a bit of a cushion.
Third, the heat loss calculation is based on a comfort level (say 70°)… but I may want to have my house at 73° some days.
Fourth, a furnace not only needs to replace the heat lost, it also needs to be able to raise the temperature, such as turning the thermostat down at night and back up in the morning… and it requires a lot more BTU’s to raise the temperature.

So, assuming those three furnaces are my only choices, maybe because it’s what I can afford, maybe availability, maybe something else… let’s take a look at them.
Ideally you want your heating efficiency calculation somewhere in the 125-150%... closer to 150% in colder climates, closer to 125% in milder climates.
The heating efficiency of furnace #1 is too low. On an unusually cold day it couldn’t keep up, and even turning the stat up in the morning on a “normal” cold day would cause it to run at 100% duty cycle for hours.
The heating efficiency of furnace #2 is just about ideal for my home, located in the climate it is. Plenty of power to replace heat loss with enough cushion for an extreme day or raising the temperature, yet not so over powered that it would short cycle during normal cold temps.
The heating efficiency of furnace #3 is overkill. Likely it would short-cycle during normal cold temperatures, which is hard on a furnace and can cause premature failure. Possibly you “could” get by with it in Alaska or the Yukon… but it is still overkill.

So while were at this...
Combustion efficiency and fuel (thermal) efficiency ain't the same thing either... which many here think high combustion efficiency automatically equates to high fuel efficiency.
You could have a friggin' stove with 100% combustion efficiency, but if it sends 50% of that heat out the flue, then it's only 50% fuel (thermal) efficient

AND NEITHER COMBUSTION EFFICIENCY NOR FUEL EFFICIENCY AUTOMATICALLY EQUAL HEATING EFFICIENCY‼
*
 
I NEVER SAID IT WAS But you keep reading it that way... (I believe) because you just want to, or maybe just because you believe yourself smarter than me.
And, by-the-way, none of this has anything to do with my stove.

Efficiency is a ratio, often expressed as a percentage... and it can be the ratio of two values based in cost, time, power, or anything else.

Thermal efficiency is the ratio of power input to useful power output.
Furnace #1 rated 60,000 BTU/hr at 90% efficient has an output of 54,000 BTU/hr.
Furnace #2 rated 90,000 BTU/hr at 80% efficient has an output of 72,000 BTU/hr.
Furnace #3 rated 125,000 BTU/hr at 70% efficient has an output of 87,500 BTU/hr.

Heating efficiency is the ratio of required power to useful power output.
If we say my house has a calculated heat loss of 50,000 BTU/hr during the coldest expected temperatures in my climate zone…
Furnace #1 would need to run 56 minutes of every hour, 4 minutes idle time.
Furnace #2 would need to run 42 minutes of every hour, 18 minutes idle time.
Furnace #3 would need to run 34 minutes of every hour, 26 minutes idle time.

Furnace #1) 54,000/50,000 = 108% heating efficient (for my home)
Furnace #2) 72,000/50,000 = 144% heating efficient (for my home)
Furnace #3) 87,500/50,000 = 175% heating efficient (for my home)


So why is heating efficiency important??
Well first, the main idea behind a heating system is comfort… if you ain’t comfortable, nothing else matters.
Second, remember this is calculated on the coldest expected temperatures… so you do need to have a bit of a cushion.
Third, the heat loss calculation is based on a comfort level (say 70°)… but I may want to have my house at 73° some days.
Fourth, a furnace not only needs to replace the heat lost, it also needs to be able to raise the temperature, such as turning the thermostat down at night and back up in the morning… and it requires a lot more BTU’s to raise the temperature.

So, assuming those three furnaces are my only choices, maybe because it’s what I can afford, maybe availability, maybe something else… let’s take a look at them.
Ideally you want your heating efficiency calculation somewhere in the 125-150%... closer to 150% in colder climates, closer to 125% in milder climates.
The heating efficiency of furnace #1 is too low. On an unusually cold day it couldn’t keep up, and even turning the stat up in the morning on a “normal” cold day would cause it to run at 100% duty cycle for hours.
The heating efficiency of furnace #2 is just about ideal for my home, located in the climate it is. Plenty of power to replace heat loss with enough cushion for an extreme day or raising the temperature, yet not so over powered that it would short cycle during normal cold temps.
The heating efficiency of furnace #3 is overkill. Likely it would short-cycle during normal cold temperatures, which is hard on a furnace and can cause premature failure. Possibly you “could” get by with it in Alaska or the Yukon… but it is still overkill.

So while were at this...
Combustion efficiency and fuel (thermal) efficiency ain't the same thing either... which many here think high combustion efficiency automatically equates to high fuel efficiency.
You could have a friggin' stove with 100% combustion efficiency, but if it sends 50% of that heat out the flue, then it's only 50% fuel (thermal) efficient

AND NEITHER COMBUSTION EFFICIENCY NOR FUEL EFFICIENCY AUTOMATICALLY EQUAL HEATING EFFICIENCY‼
*

You are just making up terms, or choosing to use them in your own arbitrary ways.

Heat is a measure of energy
Thermal Efficiency has another definition from thermodynamics, but it is reasonable to use it as a measure of energy output for energy input - NOT power, but energy.

The term Heating Efficiency is not really all that common, but when applied to things like heat pumps represent seasonal heating output in BTUs divided by the amount of energy that it consumes in watt-hours, in other words a measure of the efficiency of extracting energy from the input over a long time. For a wood stove this would be equivalent to measuring how much energy in the original fuel load did the stove extract - or in other words the same as Thermal Efficiency as you are using it. It tells you NOTHING about output rate (power), because it does not disclose the amount of time it took to extract the energy from the fuel load, rather it only tells you what percentage of the input energy got converted.

Your definition of Heating efficiency as the ratio of required power to useful power output is bunk; you just made that up - it is useful for you to know in choosing a stove, but that is not the term.

Now your main mistake is this: With something like a gas furnace you can use the ratio of output rate to input rate (BTU/hr) instead of the actual input energy to output energy (BTU), even though this is incorrect, because in a gas or oil burner the output is always at a constant rate determined by the nozzle, so it doesn't matter. [ (Output BTU/hr)/(Input BTU/hr) is equivalent to (Output BTU)/(Input BTU) because we know the rate is constant ]. This is NOT true for a wood stove, as the rate varies during the burn, so you CANNOT equate BTU/hr (rate, or power) to the efficiency number like you can with a gas furnace.

The reason you get uncomfortable is because the instantaneous rate of energy (heat) transfer from the stove is exceeded by the instantaneous rate of heat transfer out of your home, making it cold. Thus you simply need a stove with a higher heat transfer rate, which you cannot determine from the efficiency number without more information.
 
The furnace you want shown to you is called a caddy max ..probably wouldn't need two giant log trucks of wood to do it either. A Yukon is a creosote factory wood eating machine . My neighbor has one . You almost need to hire a teenager to stand by it and load wood through the door like your powering a old coal train .
I don't have a government approved wood burning appliance but here is my story. We bought our 4000+ sq. ft. house on 3 wooded acres in this frozen place called Minnesota 18 years ago. House built in 1980. House came with a Rheem oil furnace and a Jack add on wood furnace installed when the house was built. Tag on the wood burner says The JACK LINE, Warrens Wisconsin. Now the current Jack furnaces are made here in Minnesota by Yucon/Eagle. As far as I can tell same company, different location.

Well that 34 year old Jack wood furnace can heat this large house like eggs on a frying pan, and I ain't smoking up the planet doing it. I am on pace to burn close to 12 cords but, we have had 40 some days with below zero temps, and I am heating a large house. I burn dry hardwood, give the fire enough air so no smoldering, regulate how much heat I need by how much wood I throw into what some of you would call a smoke dragon POS that should be banned for the good of who the hell knows what!

That Jack REALLY throws the heat, even at minus 20F I can get this house too hot if I try! Show me a wood furnace that meets EPA rules that can heet this house in this climate to the same degree of warmth. This old so called camp fire in a box will keep my house warm all night in sub zero temps. Fill the firebox before bed, eight hrs later still 70 and enough coals to start a fire. No smoldering involved. And I do not have a Super Jack that i believe is larger, tag just says Jack.

So here is the deal, I burn clean, no smoke, Jack keeps the house toasty in frigid temps, very little creosote after a winter of burning, as far as I can tell there is not an EPA compliant wood furnace big enough to heat this 4000 sq ft in MN, to the degree of comfort I want without using other fuels also, SO WHY THE HELL SHOULD I BE FORCED TO BUY ONE WHEN I NEED TO REPLACE MY EXISTING ONE? ANSWER THAT!!!

Spidey, your math makes sense to me.
 
Laynes you can't compare your house to spideys house . In fact His house is not like any house in the universe being that it defies all natural laws of physics as we know it . also his daka has similar supernatural abilities able to burn cleaner than a EPA furnace and do so regardless of how much wood it has in it up to a claimed 30 hours . It's a good thing it can because he says he doesn't have money or the desire to insulate his old drafty house that money must be set aside for important things in life like Budweiser instead of the place where you spend a third of your life in .
 
With the quantity of BS some of you guys produce, I can see why the low flow toilets wouldn't work for you!
I'm thinking maybe some of these guys that can't get these new toilets to flush properly should reexamine their diet. We have 4 of them in our house and I literally can't remember the last time I've needed a double-flush let alone a plunger.
 
Do you believe in magic?
In a young girls heart
How the music can free her
whenever it starts

And it's magic
if the music is groovy
It makes you feel happy like an old time movie

I'll tell ya about the magic
It'll free your soul
but it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock n roll

If you believe in magic, don't bother to choose
If it's jug band music or rhythm and blues
Just go and listen
It'll start with a smile
It won't wipe off your face no matter how hard you try
Your feet start tapping
And you can't seem to find
How you got there
So just blow your mind

If you believe in magic
Come along with me
We'll dance until morning, just you and me
and maybe, if the music is right
I'll meet ya tomorrow
so late at night

We'll go a dancin' baby then you'll see
all the magic's in the music and the music's in me, yeah

Do you belive in magic? Yeah.
Believe in the magic in a young girl's soul
believe in the magic of rock n roll
Believe in the magic that can set you free
Ohhhh, talkin' bout magic

Do you believe like I believe?
Do you believe in magic?
 
Heat is not a measure of energy it is a form or energy.
Yes, fine, that is a more correct way to say the same thing. Do you believe that this changes any of the points I was making, and if so how?
 
You guys and the epa are far too worried about efficiency in my view . If i have plenty of wood and I'm willing to cut twice the wood that's my problem. I understand when I'm 50 I might care but it's a personal choice regardless. You get all you can and that's fine with me. I have different needs and goals.

Wrong take-away there. EPA's mandated concern is output of pollutants. If it happens that reducing pollution benefits efficiency, great!

Same sort of cause/effect with chainsaws & stratified-scavenging. Basic win-win. Of course, some will pee & moan for freaking ever re EPA.
 
I'm callin' BS again‼
You specifically said, "...and have that load reduced to coals in 6 to 7 hours when its below zero, keeping our house at 70-72."
You specifically indicated you were keeping up with your heat demand (your house, your conditions) in those examples... and now you're claiming the opposite??
Besides, my examples included reducing the coal bed to ash, not just reducing the wood to coals... go back and read it again.
And try and stay on the same page...

Would you please calm down. Or will you have to be sedated? I'm serious- you're heading for an aneurism or something. Put things in perspective. Your career on the soap-box has no legs.

For you guys that insist on dumping crap into our atmosphere, there's always someone downwind.
 
Spidey might want to apply to the Fortean Society. They're like Groucho's Professor Wagstaff: "whatever it is, I'm against it."
They make logical/pseudo-logical retorts against any serious statement/argument. Intellectual nihilists, except about themselves. At bottom, their point is to have no point.
 
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