The new breed of strato charged engine and auto tune carbs on modernchainsaws is another good example of tighter regulation ultimately improving design . We have self adjusting 12 pound saws approaching 5 hp on minimal fuel requirements that would be unheard just a few years ago . Some regulation is good of coarse if left unchecked it can get out of control
What the heck IS an EPA stove
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brenndatomu
Hey you woodchucks, quit chucking my wood!
deerlakejens
ArboristSite Operative
Can't change the fact that the EPA was a GOP creation, no matter how many school ground rants you want to make.
naturelover
Tree Freak
Here's some magic!
This load was shut all the way down, and was still cruising near 700. Splits were too small, but am getting low on the dry stuff.
As can see, not much burning of the wood itself, mostly burning the smoke.
With the flash.
This load was shut all the way down, and was still cruising near 700. Splits were too small, but am getting low on the dry stuff.
As can see, not much burning of the wood itself, mostly burning the smoke.
With the flash.
So the end justifies the means??
So as long as it results in something you see as a good thing, it doesn't matter what wrong is committed to achieve it??
Do you have any idea just how selfish that is??
How far are you willing to allow government to go with that??
So if government decides to end pick-pocket thievery for all time, a regulation requiring finger removal on all newborns is OK??
Oh... I see... you do want limits on government power; but not limits written in the Constitution, just your personal limits.
Every time I hear something, such as your above quote, used to justify government circumvention of the Constitution, I'm totally dumbfounded by the utter lunacy and selfishness of it... sad really. The slippery slope you're walking across keeps getting steeper, but you don't have the foresight to notice until you slip, fall down and begin sliding into the abyss; and then it will be too late for you and your descendants. All of the things (supposedly) accomplished by regulation could have been done without stomping on the Constitution... but that would've required actual hard work (as the Constitution intended) instead of just throwing taxpayer money at it. What a lazy, selfish, greedy lot we've become.
How does who created it make it better or change the wrong of it??
Seriously... I miss the point... I'm not even sure there is a point.
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What a lazy, selfish, greedy lot we've become.
aint it the truth!!!
I found this interesting, from the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency website:
Cleaner alternatives
Learn about your options before heating with wood. Consider things like your location (city or rural), access to fuel choices, cost, and environmental and health impacts. Natural gas is a cleaner fuel choice than wood in terms of the emissions of fine particles and many other air pollutants, such as carbon monoxide, formaldehyde, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, and benzene. Though new EPA-certified wood stoves are cleaner than uncertified stoves or fireplaces, they still produce more than 100 times more harmful fine particle pollution than a gas furnace for the same amount of heat.
http://www.pca.state.mn.us/index.ph...nts/general-air-quality/wood-smoke/index.html
So maybe the next step will be to ban all wood burning. Think about it.....slippery slope.....where will it end....... It usually doesn't end. Keeps on rolling.
Cleaner alternatives
Learn about your options before heating with wood. Consider things like your location (city or rural), access to fuel choices, cost, and environmental and health impacts. Natural gas is a cleaner fuel choice than wood in terms of the emissions of fine particles and many other air pollutants, such as carbon monoxide, formaldehyde, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, and benzene. Though new EPA-certified wood stoves are cleaner than uncertified stoves or fireplaces, they still produce more than 100 times more harmful fine particle pollution than a gas furnace for the same amount of heat.
http://www.pca.state.mn.us/index.ph...nts/general-air-quality/wood-smoke/index.html
So maybe the next step will be to ban all wood burning. Think about it.....slippery slope.....where will it end....... It usually doesn't end. Keeps on rolling.
Spidey I'm not advocating to go around the constitution . Today they just change the constitution to match their ideology instead anyways . If your counting in the constitution to save us your going to disappointed in the end . A swipe of a pen and an executive order from the king is enough to force everyone to follow his new decree these days ..I'm saying in some cases stricter rules have ultimately resulted in a better offering to the public . It keeps manufacturers sometimes from making the same junk every year and never upgrade . In some cases it has made the companies innovate and come up with a superior design they will run the same tired tooling and not develop in an effort to keep the profit margin high until a competitor comes up with a better idea . If the competitor comes up with a better mouse trap the others will scramble to play catchup but if no one does a thing we are stuck with same low tech junk . We should all have clean air to breathe but that doesn't mean they should make it so difficult to shut down all our energy and manufacturing or be totally out of control
Disappointed?? In the end??
I'm already disappointed.
No, I ain't counting on the constitution to save us... it's an inanimate object, it can't "do" anything. I'm counting on the people again demanding it be followed... hopefully before violence and revolution is necessary.
In my mind, the logical first step to that end would be to stop defending or praising the end result of sidestepping the constitution... the logical first step is to concentrate on the means, while ignoring the end (because, in a constitutional sense, the end is inconsequential to the means... the result doesn't matter, only how the equation is written does).
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Chris-PA
Where the Wild Things Are
People gravitate to the extremes, to absolutes. It leads people to absurdities, such as believing that a society should have no power to limit things like pollution because of what is written some 230 years ago, and that making such limits means that we head directly to the other extreme of total control and finger removal on all newborns (wtf?).
In the real world societies change and evolve, and as I've pointed out to you some of us consider the constitutional convention to have been a corruption of the original revolutionary ideals of the people by the nation's elite, rather than some enlightened group that produced holy documents. Our own society has changed massively as we've moved along the typical trajectory of all societies, and we'll continue along toward our collapse in the relatively near future like all other societies before us. It isn't really good or evil, it's just the cycle of civilizations and trying to fit it into little boxes marked good or evil just distorts your view of everything.
So you can stand on your soap box and say that our society has no power (in your view) to regulate pollution (even though the population clearly wants it to) because some guys did not explicitly write that into the constitution while they were consolidating their power and wealth within the new nation. You can try to stand in the tide of history and insist that time stop at some point you personally like and have everyone conform with your wishes. You can also ignore the fact that this nation tried your approaches, and it lead to events of the early 20th century - misery for the masses, national revolt and civil unrest, and eventually economic collapse. We can debate this here on the weekend - are weekends also evil?
The EPA has accomplished some great things, like cleaning up air and water, and also done some really stupid things such as oxygenated fuels, anything to do with ethanol (although that is really a corporate handout/corruption). I know darn well a corporation will not regulate itself - corporations will do nothing unless forced to by competition or regulations, and I have seen personally how a few large corporations will divide up a market to block smaller companies and sit fat dumb and happy on their share. This was the situation in the OPE market, and now that they've been forced to change their customers are getting better products, ones that could have been made decades ago.
I'm not at all sure the new stove emissions regulations are well designed, and I'm concerned they may be trying to turn wood heating into something that would work any where for anyone, which would be a foolish and unworkable goal. On the other hand they have not been implemented yet, and I'm still earning about what is proposed.
But why does everything have to be seen in extremes and absolutes? Truly, when I read the things you write I am often struck by the utter lunacy and selfishness of it.
Chris-PA
Where the Wild Things Are
I'm happy to read that and glad you pointed it out - I am concerned about the intent in that regard in the proposed national limits. I don't read it as a step toward another absolute (banning all wood burning appliances), rather as a reasonable statement that wood burning does not make sense in all places (and it does not), and telling people to consider the particulars of their locale. You might even read it as deferring to local authority, a classically conservative idea that will bring out horrified cries of "socialism" should some local government take any steps to limit their use.
davidbradley360
ArboristSite Operative
so i'm wandering around menards to day and i see several wood stoves, some EPA certified and some aren't. the cert is from 1990 FFS!!!!!!! are these the stoves that you get the tax break BS on or is there a new set of rules or what? BTW the stoves were also OK for mobile home installation (not that i'll EVER live in a tin can)
BTW is it true you have to burn only seasoned wood? my smoke dragon (airtight) doesn't mind green and i really don't want to cut wood 2 years ahead, i like cutting it when i'm almost out and my back is against the wall
EPA stove just think catalytic converter on your car....or air injection pump on the 1970-80's car
like going to hell to light a cigarette
to make an omelette one has to crack a few eggs
to heat a house one has to make a little smoke....
and that's all I've got to say about that....
naturelover
Tree Freak
Funny, I haven't had any problems with any catalytic converter on any car I've owned, one of the simplest things on them really.
Yea, the AIP on my old Cutlass probably cut back on power, don't know that it helped much, but it had nearly 200k on it when I parked it, no problems with it either.
And to heat one's house with wood, one has to make a little smoke, but those old stoves belching out plumes of toxic smoke surely isn't the best way to do it...
Yea, the AIP on my old Cutlass probably cut back on power, don't know that it helped much, but it had nearly 200k on it when I parked it, no problems with it either.
And to heat one's house with wood, one has to make a little smoke, but those old stoves belching out plumes of toxic smoke surely isn't the best way to do it...
Holy crap man, that ain't what I posted at all.
I'm in no way saying our laws shouldn't limit, even outlaw (some sorts of) pollution... I'm saying we should be doing it constitutionally.
Congress has the constitutional authority to pass laws making the dumping of toxic waste into rivers illegal (for example), law enforcement could then arrest violators (within constitutional limits), the court system could prosecute and punish those found guilty. But congress does not have the constitutional authority to set up a "regulatory" agency and give them powers to make their own laws (regulations), and sidestep several other clauses/amendments in the constitution and Bill of Rights. C'mon man, agencies like the EPA can enter your home or business without a warrant and punish without due process... they can fine you, shut down your business, even confiscate private property without due process. That goes against the very core of our "society".
If you're defending that, you're the one being extreme, not me.
The constitution specifically reserves the making of laws and regulations to congress, and congress alone... and it specifically reserves enforcement of those laws to the judicial system. The EPA and other "regulatory" agencies were created because congress was too lazy to do the hard work... it's easier to pass-the-(taxpayer)buck into a new bureaucracy. After all, they're too damn busy trying to find more ways to spend our money then to actually do their friggin' job.
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Vermonster
ArboristSite Operative
You poor, simple minded, misguided bastard. I wish you the best in life. But please,....open a text book.
Bushmans
Smoke Dragon Herder
I have an old stove and it doesn't belch out plumes of toxic smoke.
I am smart enough to know how to run it so it doesn't. I am also smart enough to know that my gun will not kill a person unless I tell it to. So essentially what you are saying is because we can't control people then we should eliminate anything that they might misuse. Guns, alcohol, cars, baseball bats, knives, firecrackers.....the list is endless.
So really we should ban all campfires during the summer campfire season?
We should ban all controlled burns the forestry service uses to help control wildfires?
Charcoal grills really ought to be regulated as well I guess.
and it goes on and on.....
My point is you can't lump sum everything into one category. It's lazy and unjust.
If they really want to regulate wood stove emissions then they need to it case by case. Just because you own an EPA stove doesn't mean it automatically keeps "toxic plumes of smoke" from escaping your chimney.
This would be too expensive and require too much effort on the part of the EPA which would need extra funding from our wallets. This would cause an outcry because everyone would see the hit not just us "belchers".
We used to have to take our cars in for emissions testing every year before renewing our license plates.
Is this what we want? Because some people are idiots? Because some people still want to burn green wood and really don't give a hoot? Because some people want to shut their stove down and let wood smolder? Because some people want to heat their homes with OWB which are thought to be the most inefficient way to heat a home period.
It isn't about the stove it is about how it's used. Plain and simple. We wouldn't be in this predicament if people had any common sense left in this country. Do you know how many old woodstoves are estimated to be in use in this
country? 10 million. Do you know how many of those are "belching" toxic plumes of smoke? About 80%.
I imagine if I was a wood stove manufacturer and realized I was on the brink of selling 8 million wood stoves I guess I would be greasing the pockets of a few EPA chairmen and their government fathers. So of course the push is on to change out the old wood stoves. In 20 years they will do it all over again.
You don't seriously believe these folks CARE about air quality do you? It's all about the money.
I take it upon myself to improve the burning qualities of my stove because I do care about my neighbors, I do care about my wood usage and I really do care about the air quality. I am the areas number one bitcher about wood smoke. Unfortunately not all of us have money to spend on an EPA certified wood stove that will meet out needs
I am not against better burning, believe me. What I am against is being classified as an air pig and a non caring individual because of my home heating appliance.
Smoke can be good sometimes......especially for Salmon and Venison!
jimbojango
ArboristSite Guru
you hi-jacking pricks... i started this thread as a TROLL to start with and now ya'll are just whining about things that really don't' matter. As a society we have to have SOME limits, but NOT a lot of limits. Once you get to many limits then things get out of control, and when you have to few things get out of control. The EPA doing their job isn't a problem... the EPA being a political machine IS a problem. Bureaucracies are crap, and everyone knows they are a crap, but they exist as a way to support themselves and keep themselves in a job. No one ever would want to work themselves out of a job, ever.
Crazy how this thread was supposed to be on EPA stoves then went to the concerns over the agency regulations then to the constitution .then personal responsibilities .
5 pages from now it'll be on the price of tea in china
5 pages from now it'll be on the price of tea in china
Bushmans
Smoke Dragon Herder
It seems to be a trend lately that is just too much fun to argue about to let it die!
I called the troll 6 pages ago. Somethings just bug me is all.
jimbojango
ArboristSite Guru
I mostly wanted to get some information on the "reburn" that they provide. from what LITTLE information that i've seen in this thread i'll stick with my "smoke dragon"
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