And don't be putting words in my mouth, I never said any such thing about LXT's lift... I did however say that forestry buckets are gay and for jersey hacks. Get it straight!
EXTREME precision falling
- Thread starter murphy4trees
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And don't be putting words in my mouth, I never said any such thing about LXT's lift... I did however say that forestry buckets are gay and for jersey hacks. Get it straight!
Chainsaw_Maniac
ArboristSite Operative
I've been reading this thread all the way through, and I think I'll give some neutral, unbiased feedback here.
On the issue of whether Murph tends to patronize people and make himself try and appear better and smarter than everyone else...
This is probably true. All of the good fallers on the logging crews I've worked on would be capable of the “extreme precision falling” shown in this thread and in his various videos. However, most people in the world who desire to fall trees are not professionals, and his videos are well made and informative for fallers just starting out or do-it-yourselfers.
On whether you should fall trees across paved driveways and walkways...
Ideally not if you can avoid it because you don't want to crack the asphalt. Personally, I am not a tree climber and I avoid tree work that should be left to an arborist. I am a logger and firewood cutter. If a homeowner told me he wants a tree falled across his paved walkway, and I could do so safely, I would. Since Murph is a professional arborist, he should be held to a higher standard.
On the criticism of the uprooted tree video..
Towards the end of this thread, people (mainly lxt) are criticizing the video where Murph is falling a tree and it gets uprooted by a cable being pulled by a skid-steer
miscommunication_can_be_killer.mov - YouTube
Now, I watched this video closely, and the fact that the tree broke off at the roots is not Murph's fault. It is totally the machine operator's fault. The machine operator pulled early. The depth of the notch in the dead maple is irrelevant because that tree was going to break off as soon as the machine operator started pulling UNLESS the back-cut was finished. When I fall a tree I really, really need to control, I often use my Farmi skidding winch behind a tractor. I make my winch operator not only wait for my single, but actually make him wait until I have walked 20+ feet away from the tree.
On the issue of the 1/3 notch...
I haven't read any books or manuals in a long time, but I think we have pretty much established that 1/3 depth is considered the standard. We also all know that recommendations in books are always subject to change at the discretion of the operator. Good operators modify the filing angle on saw chains, the oil to gas ratio, raker depth, and the length, width, number, amount, weight, and gauge of just about everything under the sun to get better performance under given conditions. Why should the depth of the notch be the only thing in the wood cutting world which is set in stone?
It is fair to say that a notch should be 1/3 under normal, “textbook” conditions. Why? Because a significant part of the tree will have been undermined by the notch, and gravity will pull the tree naturally in that direction. The hinge will serve to guide the tree to fall straight.
What are some of the factors which would justify deviation from the standard 1/3 depth?
-Lean of the tree
-Heavy branches in a certain direction(s)
-Wind
-Brittle or rotten wood at the location of the notch, especially if the trunk has solid areas and rotten areas
-Conditions created by the tree faller which make gravitational pull less relevant (the main thing that does this is attaching a rope or cable to the tree.
What can go wrong if the notch is too deep or two shallow?
-The tree can split in half (ruining the log if the tree is for timber and creating danger for the operator)
-Spikes of wood can pull out of the tree and stay in the stump (running part of the log and creating messy, unprofessional looking stumps)
-The tree can fall the opposite way (crushing things it wasn't supposed to crush and endangering the operator).
-The tree can fall slightly differently than it was supposed to, but not quite the opposite way.
-The tree can pinch the saw, trapping it
Safety of the operator is always the #1 concern. However, after that some of these “dangers” matter more when logging and some matter more in residential tree work. If the tree falls the wrong way in the forest, we'll skid it out anyway (as opposed to crushing someone's house or car in a residential setting). If I get a messy stump on someone's lawn or damage the tree I am removing, it doesn't matter because the tree wasn't worth anything anyway. In a logging setting, falling trees quickly and in a way that they can be skidded out is important. In a tree removal setting, speed is much less important than avoiding risk of damage, and hours can be spent falling a tree that would take minutes in a forest.
Does this essay have anything to do with this friggin' thread?
YES!
In Murph's video, we have (1) heavy lean (2) weakness or rot at the base (3) a powerful cable to offset the pull of gravity.
What I'm pretty sure Murph was getting at when asking “Why does the notch always have to be 1/3?” is that he wanted the conversation to go like this:
Faller 1: Always make your notch 1/3
Faller 2: Why?
Faller 1: Because the manual says so?
Faller 2: Why would be manual say that?
Faller 1: Because gravity will pull the tree the direction of the notch. If you cut the notch 50% or greater, the tree might fall the opposite way or start falling the right way before you make the back-cut since the remaining wood is insufficient to hold the tree. If you cut the notch too shallow, the tree may not have enough gravitational pull in the preferred direction and either fall in a less precise direction or pinch your saw blade as you make the back-cut
Faller 2: What if the pull in the desired direction is already a certainty due to lean, branch weight, or cable pressure?
Faller 1: Go ahead and make a shallow notch then.
Since nobody would answer Murph's question directly, we didn't get to the conclusion that a shallow notch is alright in some cases.
On the issue of whether Murph tends to patronize people and make himself try and appear better and smarter than everyone else...
This is probably true. All of the good fallers on the logging crews I've worked on would be capable of the “extreme precision falling” shown in this thread and in his various videos. However, most people in the world who desire to fall trees are not professionals, and his videos are well made and informative for fallers just starting out or do-it-yourselfers.
On whether you should fall trees across paved driveways and walkways...
Ideally not if you can avoid it because you don't want to crack the asphalt. Personally, I am not a tree climber and I avoid tree work that should be left to an arborist. I am a logger and firewood cutter. If a homeowner told me he wants a tree falled across his paved walkway, and I could do so safely, I would. Since Murph is a professional arborist, he should be held to a higher standard.
On the criticism of the uprooted tree video..
Towards the end of this thread, people (mainly lxt) are criticizing the video where Murph is falling a tree and it gets uprooted by a cable being pulled by a skid-steer
miscommunication_can_be_killer.mov - YouTube
Now, I watched this video closely, and the fact that the tree broke off at the roots is not Murph's fault. It is totally the machine operator's fault. The machine operator pulled early. The depth of the notch in the dead maple is irrelevant because that tree was going to break off as soon as the machine operator started pulling UNLESS the back-cut was finished. When I fall a tree I really, really need to control, I often use my Farmi skidding winch behind a tractor. I make my winch operator not only wait for my single, but actually make him wait until I have walked 20+ feet away from the tree.
On the issue of the 1/3 notch...
I haven't read any books or manuals in a long time, but I think we have pretty much established that 1/3 depth is considered the standard. We also all know that recommendations in books are always subject to change at the discretion of the operator. Good operators modify the filing angle on saw chains, the oil to gas ratio, raker depth, and the length, width, number, amount, weight, and gauge of just about everything under the sun to get better performance under given conditions. Why should the depth of the notch be the only thing in the wood cutting world which is set in stone?
It is fair to say that a notch should be 1/3 under normal, “textbook” conditions. Why? Because a significant part of the tree will have been undermined by the notch, and gravity will pull the tree naturally in that direction. The hinge will serve to guide the tree to fall straight.
What are some of the factors which would justify deviation from the standard 1/3 depth?
-Lean of the tree
-Heavy branches in a certain direction(s)
-Wind
-Brittle or rotten wood at the location of the notch, especially if the trunk has solid areas and rotten areas
-Conditions created by the tree faller which make gravitational pull less relevant (the main thing that does this is attaching a rope or cable to the tree.
What can go wrong if the notch is too deep or two shallow?
-The tree can split in half (ruining the log if the tree is for timber and creating danger for the operator)
-Spikes of wood can pull out of the tree and stay in the stump (running part of the log and creating messy, unprofessional looking stumps)
-The tree can fall the opposite way (crushing things it wasn't supposed to crush and endangering the operator).
-The tree can fall slightly differently than it was supposed to, but not quite the opposite way.
-The tree can pinch the saw, trapping it
Safety of the operator is always the #1 concern. However, after that some of these “dangers” matter more when logging and some matter more in residential tree work. If the tree falls the wrong way in the forest, we'll skid it out anyway (as opposed to crushing someone's house or car in a residential setting). If I get a messy stump on someone's lawn or damage the tree I am removing, it doesn't matter because the tree wasn't worth anything anyway. In a logging setting, falling trees quickly and in a way that they can be skidded out is important. In a tree removal setting, speed is much less important than avoiding risk of damage, and hours can be spent falling a tree that would take minutes in a forest.
Does this essay have anything to do with this friggin' thread?
YES!
In Murph's video, we have (1) heavy lean (2) weakness or rot at the base (3) a powerful cable to offset the pull of gravity.
What I'm pretty sure Murph was getting at when asking “Why does the notch always have to be 1/3?” is that he wanted the conversation to go like this:
Faller 1: Always make your notch 1/3
Faller 2: Why?
Faller 1: Because the manual says so?
Faller 2: Why would be manual say that?
Faller 1: Because gravity will pull the tree the direction of the notch. If you cut the notch 50% or greater, the tree might fall the opposite way or start falling the right way before you make the back-cut since the remaining wood is insufficient to hold the tree. If you cut the notch too shallow, the tree may not have enough gravitational pull in the preferred direction and either fall in a less precise direction or pinch your saw blade as you make the back-cut
Faller 2: What if the pull in the desired direction is already a certainty due to lean, branch weight, or cable pressure?
Faller 1: Go ahead and make a shallow notch then.
Since nobody would answer Murph's question directly, we didn't get to the conclusion that a shallow notch is alright in some cases.
Plus one on the farmi winch and the walking away and then giving the signal CM. Finally, somebody that actually has a clue!! And to think, I was gonna bust yer chops cuz ya look like an alter boy in your avatar! 
Nailsbeats
Addicted to ArboristSite
Plus one for dropping stuff on the road. Pretty standard in my book (the one I'm writing, lol), gotta take the shot when you can and move on to the next one. Just don't #### it up.
And for the record, I think LXT is officially meaner than me.. especially after this last tongue lashing he unleashed on poor danno!
Nailsbeats
Addicted to ArboristSite
Danno climbs with a .45 on his saddle and has the pics to prove it, I wouldn't go spouting off on him anytime soon, lol........
LXT, why are you so jacked up on Murph? The guy is just doing his thing.........
Blakesmaster
Addicted to ArboristSite
And to think, I was gonna bust yer chops cuz ya look like an alter boy in your avatar!
Yeah, I couldn't get past that. lol
CM, you brought up undermining the weight of the tree. Not sure where or what you're cutting but I just don't get it. I get the concept but in reality I can't see it working because there are far too many other variables at play. More important variables in my opinion. Yes, you touched on a few but I think you put far to much weight on the undermining issue. A notch can only undermine if at least 50% of the trees downward force ( weight ) is on the notch side of the hinge. So assuming a perfectly balanced tree your notch must be greater than 50% deep otherwise the tree will settle on the backcut side. If the tree isn't perfectly balanced ( none of them are ) you must apply some type of force if falling against the lean. Either by rope or wedge. Using ropes, wedges, adjusting for lean, wind, weight of canopy, etc. are far more important considerations when falling than undermining the tree with your notch.
On a side note for those of us who know, I'm speaking specifically regarding conventional notch felling, not using sizwheels, snipes, and a lot of other tricks in the book to undermine the weight/offset the lean/swing the tree. That's a whole 'nuther topic where prefer to read and not type.
ropensaddle
Feel Lucky
I thought about makin a video of extreme precision felling but decided against it. I need to do it but just don't want to split wood and after cutting a hundred hickories in a couple hours the work would begin. So instead I went and ground 30 stumps
PS: I could make a pretty neat open face with my grinder
PS: I could make a pretty neat open face with my grinder
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treemandan
Tree Freak
[/B]
All righty then..................Danno, your not looking too good when you talk like this (you should post that pic of you on the steps with the dish towel over your shoulder)
LXT.................
you don't look so good yerself.
We have to drop by now and then to get a laugh outta you pruners.
Some of you Arbs are so full of yourselves, you come off as flamboyant as gays.
Okay, well I have to admit that is pretty funny, but the other side of the coin is that most any retard with a sharp saw can be trained to drop a tree from the ground.. I mean really, how hard is it.. at least you can throw yer saw and run if ya #### up! Lol.
View attachment 215131
Im not mean!!!!!!!!!! C`mon, Dan is done.....stick a fork in him, if he carries a .45 then I carry a 50 cal. & a friend to my enemy is my enemy....!
I dont have a tow behind anymore!!! hey I didnt say anything about "gummin" someone or riding their wood.....Danno did & opened himself up for the abuse he got (well deserved to) & if any one else is into gummin & wood riding Ill let ya have it just like Danno. Anyway.......I still like the Dan
as for Murph doing his thing? great... just dont flaunt it as an instructional series thinking you`re all that when you`re not! Tell me why his videos are any better than what AA puts up........I mean one a lawn mower the other a skid steer to pull over a tree, both have showed some true goof ups & both think they are above learning & above us mere mortals!!!
So not showing favoritism I let Murph have it to......hell both have even been caught in lies, Murph puts a spin on it & turns it into a training series while the other one says he was just joking........two peas in a pod if you ask me & both dont do our trade any justice, only difference is Murph thinks he`s educated & AA thinks he`s a special agent.............both are laughable!!! But I would work with AA before working with Murph, atleast AA`s jobsite would be fun & not an instructional show for the elderly! well maybe?
LXT...............
I dont have a tow behind anymore!!! hey I didnt say anything about "gummin" someone or riding their wood.....Danno did & opened himself up for the abuse he got (well deserved to) & if any one else is into gummin & wood riding Ill let ya have it just like Danno. Anyway.......I still like the Dan
as for Murph doing his thing? great... just dont flaunt it as an instructional series thinking you`re all that when you`re not! Tell me why his videos are any better than what AA puts up........I mean one a lawn mower the other a skid steer to pull over a tree, both have showed some true goof ups & both think they are above learning & above us mere mortals!!!
So not showing favoritism I let Murph have it to......hell both have even been caught in lies, Murph puts a spin on it & turns it into a training series while the other one says he was just joking........two peas in a pod if you ask me & both dont do our trade any justice, only difference is Murph thinks he`s educated & AA thinks he`s a special agent.............both are laughable!!! But I would work with AA before working with Murph, atleast AA`s jobsite would be fun & not an instructional show for the elderly! well maybe?
LXT...............
In my pics Im working in 90+ degree weather or sub zero..........that pic of you with a dish towel on shoulder looked as though you gummed or rode something a little to hard & long...........LOL
Anyway Danno, you are funny & seem a straight shooter....other than one needs a bronx interpreter for your ebonic hash, why getting outta the trade.......? your healthy & seem to do pretty good?
LXT............
treemandan
Tree Freak
treemandan
Tree Freak
I dont know you tell us..............while gummin & riding did Murph slap ya around, call ya names, yell expletives at ya? uhh? if so......you better file more than a complaint!!!
CM........a little long winded post, but very informative.........However, Murph will no doubt have something to add or take away & that is when it starts all over again........you prolly didnt give the right answer & im sure you will be corrected in some manner! but none the less a good post!
LXT.........
Ah, its winter....that`ll pass & besides what are ya gonna do? tree care is in yer blood man! whatever ya do...goodluck with that & be safe!
LXT..............
treeclimber101
UNCLE BUCK
oh so now your doggin lone wolf , that's great is there any end to your ball gurgling nonsense man woodsman 44 and jeff are right you are a A HOLE
Chainsaw_Maniac
ArboristSite Operative
What you are saying is true, but my post concerned the 1/3 notch depth issue. The more you undermine, the more weight you put on the notch side of the tree as opposed to the back-cut side of the tree. As you say, this added weight is not always going to be sufficient to put more than 50% of the tree's weight on the notch side. Therefore, fallers who aren't using a rope or cable will fall with the lean in their favour (offset up to 90 degrees) and use a wedge.
Let's say I had a massive old maple weighing 10 000 lbs with no clear lean in any direction, a balanced canopy, no wind, and no cable. I decide to fall this tree with nothing but a couple of plastic wedges which I intend to kick in with the heel of my boot. I'll fall this tree easily with a nice deep notch since my little wedges will easily deliver the excess force to put over 50% of the weight on the notch side. I'd have a hell of a time doing it with a shallow notch since my little wedge would have to deliver potentially thousands of pounds more force. The difference would be completely because of undermining.
Basically, if it weren't for the weight of undermining, there would be no real difference when falling with a shallow wedge vs a 1/3 deep wedge (provided the hinge is wide enough to control the fall). The 1/3 notch issue was the essence of the discussion concerning Murph's tree.
A Wolf will tear a dog up every time
You badmouth Forestry units because you are to poor to buy one .Are two trucks in one gay but not your truck?. If you dont have one will you work 7200 lines unshielded without one?!And why are New Jersey Tree Services hacks ?
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The problem with what Murph did was:
1- shallow notch
2- poor communication
3- stopped back cut to soon
4- created excuses after the fact for a poorly done job
your undermining theory is only good in a perfect setting & gives only a limited definition...the Notch originally was used as a means for directional guiding as it was thought that where the notch is...is the direction the tree will fall, however that theory holds truth but we all know it is somewhat flawed. the 1/3rd rule is just a basic guideline & when mathematics is put into the mix thats where they get the notch depth, back cut height & hinge wood.
the back cut height was established to prevent the butt from coming back at you......the hinge is determined by notch depth, circum & most importantly the "holding wood"..........therefore giving these factors a specific definition/reason cant truly be given....thats why I asked what publication to cite cause every one has different reasonings for the same outcome!!!
Murphs so called special cut "bore cut" was originally used by loggers for the purpose of keeping the butt tear to a minimum & reduce checking at least was the thought...........Murphs uses of this cut is a twisted portrayal of a snap cut & with enough pull force the spar will go but it is not a directional felling notch & can go bad real quick....not a technique to use nor promote as an instructional act!!
LXT...............
1- shallow notch
2- poor communication
3- stopped back cut to soon
4- created excuses after the fact for a poorly done job
your undermining theory is only good in a perfect setting & gives only a limited definition...the Notch originally was used as a means for directional guiding as it was thought that where the notch is...is the direction the tree will fall, however that theory holds truth but we all know it is somewhat flawed. the 1/3rd rule is just a basic guideline & when mathematics is put into the mix thats where they get the notch depth, back cut height & hinge wood.
the back cut height was established to prevent the butt from coming back at you......the hinge is determined by notch depth, circum & most importantly the "holding wood"..........therefore giving these factors a specific definition/reason cant truly be given....thats why I asked what publication to cite cause every one has different reasonings for the same outcome!!!
Murphs so called special cut "bore cut" was originally used by loggers for the purpose of keeping the butt tear to a minimum & reduce checking at least was the thought...........Murphs uses of this cut is a twisted portrayal of a snap cut & with enough pull force the spar will go but it is not a directional felling notch & can go bad real quick....not a technique to use nor promote as an instructional act!!
LXT...............
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