How short is too short????

[tramp bushler]

He files a saw like a riggin man does . . He is on Flat ground . And the tree he fell in the vid wasn't any bigger than the one in my avatar . . That tree took me about 4 1/2 minutes to fall. 90' up I Had to hit my lay , which was about 5 ' wide . Let me see someone do that with a short bar

 

[Alex D]

I suffered thru 2 of them . All I could handle . I find it interesting he didn't video putting the face in in the 1 st vid . And then , round fileing a semi chisel chain . .

Here you can see the face cut
090AV STIHL WORKING - YouTube

Apart from the west coast of North America im not aware of anywhere else in the world where square ground chain is commonly used... Plus I don't think it would hold up to well in their tropical hardwoods

He files a saw like a riggin man does . . He is on Flat ground . And the tree he fell in the vid wasn't any bigger than the one in my avatar . . That tree took me about 4 1/2 minutes to fall. 90' up I Had to hit my lay , which was about 5 ' wide . Let me see someone do that with a short bar

What's wrong with the way he files his chain?? Any specifics?? I wouldn't say his chain is dull in any of the vids.

 

[wyk]

He files a saw like a riggin man does . . He is on Flat ground . And the tree he fell in the vid wasn't any bigger than the one in my avatar . . That tree took me about 4 1/2 minutes to fall. 90' up I Had to hit my lay , which was about 5 ' wide . Let me see someone do that with a short bar

One of the most annoying things for me in Europe was using 15" bars on 60cc saws to cut 2.5-3' hardwood and cedar trees. It took a lot longer, and snedding/limbing was a literal pain in the back. After the first few weeks, once i got some parts I needed, I switched to my 50cc Echo I ported and NK chain on a 20" bar and never looked back, and largely increased my production. Putting a 20" bar on an 880 is missing the point. It is a relatively slow-revving saw made to have enough torque to pull long chains in big wood, regardless of whether hardwood or soft. You are better off running a 24" bar on a 660 in hardwood than a 20" 880 unless you like to make a lot of cuts and waste time. You'll also probably save some weight.

In other words, 'too short' is when it starts to waste time and effort.

 

[o8f150]

to answer the question in your title,,, ask my wife:hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange::hmm3grin2orange:
seriously,, i run a 20" on my 372xp and a 16 on my 346",, anything 42cc and under i run a 12"

 

[injun joe]

well to try and get this subject back on track i stand about 6'2'' with boots an additional 1'' i used to have back problems when i did a lot of operating because where i worked didnt have me hopping off the mochine to do laborious acts. thats all changed now i am a carpenter in training and the back problems have for the most part disappeared oh i do have the occasional back go out but bending over isnt an issue like it once was.
well i bought the 441 a few years back and its been good but since i got the 660 i no longer need to run a longer bar for it becuase quite frankly i classify wood one of two ways 441 wood or 660 wood haha. yeah i have a alot of smaller saws but i made the investment in the 441 so i figured i better start using it more often because i usually just grab the 660 no matter how big or little.

 

[SawTroll]

What is too short . Most advocates of short bars don't know how to and have never run a truely Sharp saw . And are on flat ground with small timber .
And it depends how much you like being hunched over like a monkey with a football .
Short bars make my back hurt . A 20" bar is a really short bar .

Generalizing like that is hopeless, and just shows your ignorance....:msp_rolleyes:

 

[Stihlman441]

Stock 441C 20'' 8 pin sprocket
Ported 441C 28'' 7 pin sprocket.

 

[C SAW 090]

I run a 20 on all my work saws here in maine,works good for all the (small) wood I cut. I cut with my 20 on my 066 all day on the firewood pile today, a couple times I coulda used the 32'' bar I have. But I dont wanna file that many teeth every time I have to sharpen it, just to be able to cut it all in one pass. I guess theres a time and a place for big bars, but not all the time.Big bars=Big money!! This is my opinion I think.

 

[tramp bushler]

Gener

alizing like that is hopeless, and just shows your ignorance....:msp_rolleyes:

Oh really Troll . Of the over 250 professional timber fallers I've worked with and around . The shortest bar I've ever seen was a 28" over the past 28 years . How many million board feet of timber do you fall and buck a year ????? . How many thousand a day ?? I've done a bunch of cutting with the 441 running a 25"
Stihl bar. It's ok . Most of what I cut was small Interior Silver Poplar . But my partner and I fell and bucked an 18 acre patch of coastal cotton wood in 6 days with them . Flat ground . Timber up to 5' on the stump . Most in the 3' dia range . We each averaged about 30 k a day . . We both would have vastly prefered 32" bars for that part .
Don't even think about sayin I'm ignorant when it comes to cuttin timber $#!+ head .

 

[Alex D]

Oh really Troll . Of the over 250 professional timber fallers I've worked with and around . The shortest bar I've ever seen was a 28" over the past 28 years . How many million board feet of timber do you fall and buck a year ????? . How many thousand a day ?? I've done a bunch of cutting with the 441 running a 25"
Stihl bar. It's ok . Most of what I cut was small Interior Silver Poplar . But my partner and I fell and bucked an 18 acre patch of coastal cotton wood in 6 days with them . Flat ground . Timber up to 5' on the stump . Most in the 3' dia range . We each averaged about 30 k a day . . We both would have vastly prefered 32" bars for that part .
Don't even think about sayin I'm ignorant when it comes to cuttin timber $#!+ head .

The people you are describing are professional loggers on the NA West Coast. Big trees are still being felled there on steep ground and long bars work best, I believe you as do most people I would think. Take this vid for example Helping my partner on a big one - YouTube falling a 15 foot cedar, a 20" bar is definately not to way to go. Or there are some of those crazy vids on youtube of west coast guys falling trees from mountain sides where extra reach is definately required.

But saying that anyone who uses a short bar doesnt know how to sharpen a chain, doesn't know what they're doing etc... is inaccurate. The whole world is not the west coast of North America. On the east coast, in Europe, Australia to I guess, lots of people cut small trees on flat ground where short bars work great. What works best for a pro logger in the PNW does not work best in other parts of the world.

 

[tramp bushler]

I am not arguing with anyoue cutting small trees with short bars . But as to sharp chains , I've watched Alot of utube vids of guys bucking cookies and its quite obvious their chains are not truely sharp .

When someone brags that they can cut 70" on the stump timber with a 24" bar . Sorry but I'm gonna call b.s. in the most vehemint manner .

But anyone can use what they want . Just don't claim a short bar works as well as a longer bar in many situations .

 

[RandyMac]

 

[Justsaws]

36" bar on a 302 would have a whole lot of 1/4" teeth to sharpen.:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[RandyMac]

Here is another slant on using short bars.

Part of my formal training was, well, sportfalling. That 302 had a 14" bar, my brother and I tackled some of the damnedest trees with that teeny thing. The goal, besides the thrill factor, was to develop the ability to fall trees with two and a half times more in diameter as the bar length. What was learned by such activity came in handy later.

 

[Justsaws]

well to try and get this subject back on track i stand about 6'2'' with boots an additional 1'' i used to have back problems when i did a lot of operating because where i worked didnt have me hopping off the mochine to do laborious acts. thats all changed now i am a carpenter in training and the back problems have for the most part disappeared oh i do have the occasional back go out but bending over isnt an issue like it once was.
well i bought the 441 a few years back and its been good but since i got the 660 i no longer need to run a longer bar for it becuase quite frankly i classify wood one of two ways 441 wood or 660 wood haha. yeah i have a alot of smaller saws but i made the investment in the 441 so i figured i better start using it more often because i usually just grab the 660 no matter how big or little.

If you are running solid bars with replacable sprockets and looking to lighten up the lower back pull while using them shop around for a laminated sprocket tip bar, typically 20" or smaller. Depending on the make some can "feel" quite a bit lighter at the end of the day. You know what your cutting so size wise you got to pick what works. The new "lite" longer bars are too pricey for my needs but if you need to cut and looking to reduce to pull on your back you might want to check them out, they are nice.

 

[KiwiBro]

anything 42cc and under i run a 12"

Ever run a MS 241 C-M?
:cool2:

 

[Eccentric]

Ever run a MS 241 C-M?
:cool2:

Probably not, as he's here in the states. I do know that a 41cc Homelite Super E-Z Auto will pull a 16" bar wearing .325 or 3/8" (not LP) just fine.

 

[Justsaws]

Here is another slant on using short bars.

Part of my formal training was, well, sportfalling. That 302 had a 14" bar, my brother and I tackled some of the damnedest trees with that teeny thing. The goal, besides the thrill factor, was to develop the ability to fall trees with two and a half times more in diameter as the bar length. What was learned by such activity came in handy later.

I have not met many folks have recieved any training beyond what they have seen from family and friends or if they were motivated read. I have not. Even many of the commercial cutters do not get much beyond a safety seminar and some "on the job training". If the OP does not need a 28" bar mounted to his 441 to cut what he is cutting then why not use a 20". If he is physically able to bend the body parts needed to use the shorter bar then good for him. A 28" bar in a 16" locust stand in as much of a pita as 16" bar in a 36" maple for me so why not run what he wants.

I always kind of figured that the "European" techniques were an effort to slow down production, create a specialized work force and reduce waste with an emphasis on increased safety being it's most "marketable" an enforcable attibutes.

IJ, the 20" bar a 441 is pretty standard around here so I would look for other reasons as to why the chain broke.

 

[KiwiBro]

Probably not, as he's here in the states. I do know that a 41cc Homelite Super E-Z Auto will pull a 16" bar wearing .325 or 3/8" (not LP) just fine.

In all fairness, the 241 is OVER 42cc's (42.6).:msp_w00t:

 

[Stihlman441]

I run a 16'' on my 241C