Stihl quality headed downhill bad

[Conquistador3]

production falling saw. by 2 months it would already have around 350 tanks through it. i believe they only give 2 months or 3 maybe. can't remember as i don't care for warranty anyways. they almost always make it through the warranty. if it's a year professional use now i am not aware of that change and likely he isn't either.

I think that's due to the law here in Europe: warranties have to run at one year minimum for professional use and two year minimum for residential use.
Echo and Shindaiwa offer two year to professionals on all their saws: that means they are either damn sure of their products or bet on the fact they have nothing to compete with the big Husqvarna's and Stihl's.

 

[Chainsaw Jim]

i can't be certain what he did but they were in a pile in camp lol. i can't even verify it was in fact the issue. he just told me the connecting rod bearing went in all 3 of them and that he will never buy another one. i have no reason to not believe him. i did turn one over and it sounded pretty clanky. i heard that stihl started using a plastic cage bearing for the big end in the 661? i never had one apart yet so can't be sure but would be nice to know the for sure answer of that as i don't take any fallers word for nothing. most of them don't know their ass from their head when it comes to saws. why else would he not be running them? i was the grunt in that camp and had to do the fuel so i know they were running 40:1 castrol super 2 stroke while i was there. can't be certain what other grunts mixed. i heard stories in that camp of some brand new saws getting roached on the first day because of guys not knowing how to mix. stihl know there problem i think, they saw money saving opportunities in the stout 660 cranks and started building the 661 cranks weaker lol

Those plastic bearing cages have been used before they went to the 661. I've seen them on both the early and late 660.

 

[Big_Wood]

Those plastic bearing cages have been used before they went to the 661. I've seen them on both the early and late 660.

not on the big end though? i've worked on alot of 066/660's and they all had metal big end cages. i know the plastic cage mains have been used for years. wish i had one to strip and look to see for myself.

 

[Chainsaw Jim]

not on the big end though? i've worked on alot of 066/660's and they all had metal big end cages. i know the plastic cage mains have been used for years. wish i had one to strip and look to see for myself.

I'll double check buy I'm pretty sure I took both sets apart by popping the plastic out. They're still laying around in the clutter somewhere.

 

[Big_Wood]

It's hilarious to me that people think Stihl and Husqvarna are different when all the cylinders, pistons, carburetors, bearings, and coils are made by the same manufacturers.

I'll double check buy I'm pretty sure I took both sets apart by popping the plastic out. They're still laying around in the clutter somewhere.

you can't pop the plastic cage out of a big end. the parts were seeing fail are directly related to the manufacturers though. sure a mahle top end is a mahle top end but a stihl crank is not a husky crank. it seems like stihl might be getting husky to make their 661 cranks though

 

[Chainsaw Jim]

People think Stihl and Husqvarna are so different when most of the cylinders, pistons, carburetors, bearings, and coils are made by the same manufacturers.
I don't think it's the brand as much as it is the dealer support. I've seen dealers send saws back out left and right that didn't get the autotune problems resolved simply because they think they know it all and refuse to call dealer support to check for the latest software updates. Take the Husqvarna EL46 carb for example...they changed out to the EL44 because that carb is problematic. Some dealers will spend days troubleshooting internet tweaks messing with lever springs and whatnot. The solution is to upgrade to the new carb. In my opinion it should be a flat out recall on that carb, but instead we have bashing on the brand/model.

 

[windthrown]

The 391 is a homeowner saw. If you are milling with one, that is what I would expect: failure. I would not base my opinion on Stihl (or Husky) on a cheap clamshell engine saw bearing failing (milling or not). Many bearing failures are simply from people tightening chains on saws when they are HOT, and the clutch side bearing fails from running chains too tight when the cool off and shrink. Doi! Also people run saws with crappy premix oil (TC-W3, generic garbage, or 100:1) and crappy gas (mostly old gas). Or even straight gas. Then they wonder why they fail. Cannot blame the saws for those failures.

As for Xtroq/Strato, that is another story. As are Autotune/Mtronic saws. I run mostly pre-EPA saws and I use an orange screwdriver to tune them, as well as good E0 supreme gas with JASO FD oil at 42:1, and my saws last, seemingly forever. Even 211, 290 and 310 homeowner saws, which I have run the absolute snot out of, which have cheap clamshell engines and the 211 even has a strato engine in it.

 

[Chainsaw Jim]

The 391 is a homeowner saw. If you are milling with one, that is what I would expect: failure. I would not base my opinion on Stihl (or Husky) on a cheap clamshell engine saw bearing failing (milling or not). Many bearing failures are simply from people tightening chains on saws when they are HOT, and the clutch side bearing fails from running chains too tight when the cool off and shrink. Doi! Also people run saws with crappy premix oil (TC-W3, generic garbage, or 100:1) and crappy gas (mostly old gas). Or even straight gas. Then they wonder why they fail. Cannot blame the saws for those failures.

As for Xtroq/Strato, that is another story. As are Autotune/Mtronic saws. I run mostly pre-EPA saws and I use an orange screwdriver to tune them, as well as good E0 supreme gas with JASO FD oil at 42:1, and my saws last, seemingly forever. Even 211, 290 and 310 homeowner saws, which I have run the absolute snot out of, which have cheap clamshell engines and the 211 even has a strato engine in it.

I also thought it is a bit tough on that model for milling. I would expect every single one of those models to not last one single day if used for milling the way I've seen milling done.

Also great advise on the "JASO FD". The only problem with this is that Stihl doesn't make oil at that level of quality so the alternative is Husqvarna, echo or shindaiwa red armor brand. And if you ever need warranty service you need to keep a bottle of Stihl oil around to fill your tank with before letting the service shop see it or they'll void the warranty.

 

[windthrown]

I also thought it is a bit tough on that model for milling. I would expect every single one of those models to not last one single day if used for milling the way I've seen milling done.

Also great advise on the "JASO FD". The only problem with this is that Stihl doesn't make oil at that level of quality so the alternative is Husqvarna, echo or shindaiwa red armor brand. And if you ever need warranty service you need to keep a bottle of Stihl oil around to fill your tank with before letting the service shop see it or they'll void the warranty.

As long as you use a quality rated oil, they have to hold uphold the warranty. There was a huge court case some years ago over oil, maintenence and warranty for autos, and that has carried over to small engines. It even states that in the Stihl owner's manuals now that you can use any brand oil at 50:1 (they used to insist on 25:1 for all 'other' oil brands) and mid-grade E-10 gas.

Not to turn this into another oil thread, but there are a lot of JASO FD (or equivalent ISO-L-EGD) or better air cooled engine rated oils out there, including Mobil 1, Elf, Motul, Bel Ray, Homelite, Husqvarna, Echo, Castrol, Yamalube, Maxima, etc. etc. I also forgot to add that I use full synthetic oil. I find it to be superior to dyno and dyno blend oils.

 

[Chainsaw Jim]

As long as you use a quality rated oil, they have to hold uphold the warranty. There was a huge court case some years ago over oil, maintenence and warranty for autos, and that has carried over to small engines. It even states that in the Stihl owner's manuals now that you can use any brand oil at 50:1 (they used to insist on 25:1 for all 'other' oil brands) and mid-grade E-10 gas.

That may be so, but it is still discretionary at the front counter and they can legally say whatever they want. Especially when the extended warranty is part of an agreement.

 

[LowVolt]

To me these auto tune saws are set borderline lean thanks to the EPA and there's nothing you can do about it. As Andy said the bean counters are lowering the quality to make money right now, why worry about the future when they'll be on a fat pension for making the company money right now while ruining a good name. Steve

Exactly.

bearing failures IMHO are going to be more common on strato saws, simply not enough oil getting to the bottom end.

Correct me if I am wrong but it seems like the mtronic/autotune saws are tuned fatter. You get a nice four stroke at WOT. With the regular carbed saws with limiters, those sob's are tuned lean when u get them. Little to no 4 stroke.

 

[Rockjock]

All pro saws have 1 year warranty, UNLESS they are used professionally then it is 90 days. We seldom see saws come in unless it is a fuel related issue. ( old fuel left to sit in the tank )

 

[Andyshine77]

Correct me if I am wrong but it seems like the mtronic/autotune saws are tuned fatter. You get a nice four stroke at WOT. With the regular carbed saws with limiters, those sob's are tuned lean when u get them. Little to no 4 stroke.

Out of the cut I agree, in the cut is a different story. So far all the AT/Mtronic saws I've ran and now own seem fine, but I'm not running saws professionally.

 

[SawTroll]

Correct me if I am wrong but it seems like the mtronic/autotune saws are tuned fatter. You get a nice four stroke at WOT. With the regular carbed saws with limiters, those sob's are tuned lean when u get them. Little to no 4 stroke.

As I understand it, the non-strato saws often need to be tuned leaner than they should be, for EPA inspection reasons. Then it is up to the dealer and owner to correct the situation....

 

[Derrick Sawyer]

I fixed a 661 that had a bad crank, the big end bearing sleeve is definitely metal, it grenaded and left indents in the top of the piston and cylinder...i was able to reuse the cylinder since somehow it didn't score the sides. Since then the saw has been great, but i have only run it for 1-2 tanks at a time so not a good test for pro use. It does seem to hit a "turbo" when cutting which feels to me like it leans out in the cut, could be a problem if someone uses dull chains and runs 50:1, I run 40:1.

Also how does the stainless muffler dissipate heat compared to the regular ones? They definitely show heat discoloration quickly.

Also it looked like there is barely any chamfer on the ports, but since it has quad ports with bridging across like the 461, then i guess the rings have much less chance to deflect going over the ports, so that shouldn't be a problem.

Overall durability of 044, 046, 066 is going to be nearly impossible to match while still getting lower emissions.

 

[Philip Wheelock]

...Overall durability of 044, 046, 066 is going to be nearly impossible to match while still getting lower emissions.

It does make you wonder... The local Stihl shop prefers the standard carbs all day long.
Also... The local Husky shop would rather maintain a 372xp over a 562xp; they do a brisk business with the tree companies and are all about reliability.

 

[Rockjock]

It does make you wonder... The local Stihl shop prefers the standard carbs all day long.
Also... The local Husky shop would rather maintain a 372xp over a 562xp; they do a brisk business with the tree companies and are all about reliability.

It is actually more about old dogs not wanting to learn new tricks. We sell a great many m-tronic saws and have not had any of the terrible issues that some have claimed. Oddly it is the new crop of tree guys that are running the 441, 362, 661 that are singing their praises. I have 2 more 661's on order for a local company that is taking down ash trees and they seem to really like these saws. Running at 50:1 10 hours a day 5 days a week and all i do is dress a bar every now and again. I do think it is many techs that do not want to evolve. But to be honest there are several dealers in my area the same way, they dislike the m-tronic saws with a passion.. They are also the same ones that are wondering where all the customers have gone.

 

[windthrown]

That may be so, but it is still discretionary at the front counter and they can legally say whatever they want. Especially when the extended warranty is part of an agreement.

No, you are dead wrong on this and they cannot 'legally' say whatever they want (at least in the US). They can piss and moan about it, but if you call Stihl INC in VA you can get them to change their tune and in a hurry. You can also make a complaint with the BBB, and they (Stihl, INC) will respond to that very fast as well. I have seen that done myself. Do not let a dealer push you around! Extended or otherwise, they are on the hook for the warranty. And if it is an EPA listed saw part that fails, they are on the hook no matter what happened, even if the saw is sold to someone else (Stihl only warrants a saw to the original buyer, and the warranty is not transferable). The oil issue is a big one and they cannot deny a warranty claim because you did not use their Stihl brand of oil. Period.

Update: BTW, the warranty here in the US has changed over the years. Stihl used to have a 2 year warranty for homeowners and a one year warranty for pros on gas chainsaws. Now its a one year warranty for homeowners (a two year extended warranty is available at the time of sale for homeowners that buy a 6 pack of Stihl oil or a can of MotoMix, which may be where the confusion comes from that you have to use Stihl oil) and 3 months for pros. But it varies on the saw and tool type and user. Attached is the latest warranty sheet from Stihl in the USA. Note that nothing says that you have to use Stihl oil to keep your warranty valid anywhere. Nor do you have to have them tune your saws to keep them warrantied.

 

[windthrown]

As I understand it, the non-strato saws often need to be tuned leaner than they should be, for EPA inspection reasons. Then it is up to the dealer and owner to correct the situation....

The dealer cannot 'correct' for EPA stuff here, legally. They have to keep and restore a saw (any saw) that they work on to EPA specs, or face losing their license. Owners are another matter (we can pretty much do whatever we want; the legality of doing that is still questionable though). Most pre-starto saws were tuned a tad lean when the limiter was hit with the H screw. You can remove the limiter and trim it off, re-insert it (or leave it out) and tune the saw properly. By properly, there is a section in most Stihl WS manuals on how to tune a saw w/o the limiter caps in place. After that you are 'supposed' to re-install the limiters and de-tune them to EPA requirements. I skip that last step myself.

 

[Chainsaw Jim]

No, you are dead wrong on this and they cannot 'legally' say whatever they want (at least in the US). They can piss and moan about it, but if you call Stihl INC in VA you can get them to change their tune and in a hurry. You can also make a complaint with the BBB, and they (Stihl, INC) will respond to that very fast as well. I have seen that done myself. Do not let a dealer push you around! Extended or otherwise, they are on the hook for the warranty. And if it is an EPA listed saw part that fails, they are on the hook no matter what happened, even if the saw is sold to someone else (Stihl only warrants a saw to the original buyer, and the warranty is not transferable). The oil issue is a big one and they cannot deny a warranty claim because you did not use their Stihl brand of oil. Period.

Update: BTW, the warranty here in the US has changed over the years. Stihl used to have a 2 year warranty for homeowners and a one year warranty for pros on gas chainsaws. Now its a one year warranty for homeowners (a two year extended warranty is available at the time of sale for homeowners that buy a 6 pack of Stihl oil or a can of MotoMix, which may be where the confusion comes from that you have to use Stihl oil) and 3 months for pros. But it varies on the saw and tool type and user. Attached is the latest warranty sheet from Stihl in the USA. Note that nothing says that you have to use Stihl oil to keep your warranty valid anywhere. Nor do you have to have them tune your saws to keep them warrantied.

Yeah I've spoken with Stihl reps personally and they do not care how the dealers treat their customers. Call and complain all you want.. it'll just fall on deaf ears.