Stihl quality headed downhill bad

[windthrown]

Yeah I've spoken with Stihl reps personally and they do not care how the dealers treat their customers. Call and complain all you want.. it'll just fall on deaf ears.

I have (almost) always gotten a good response from the Stihl factory myself. Use the online email form. And I definitely got a fast and positive response after filing a complaint with the BBB. As for getting information about saw recalls and the like (the 661 in particular), that got me nowhere.

Contact Stihl factory first in VA using their online form:

http://www.stihlusa.com/information/corporate/contact-us/

Then if that gets you nowhere, for filing complaints against Stihl with the BBB in the USA, go to the BBB web site and fill in the complaint here:

https://www.bbb.org/consumer-compla...t-started?source=cibr&bbbid=0583&bid=14005198

 

[SawTroll]

The dealer cannot 'correct' for EPA stuff here, legally. They have to keep and restore a saw (any saw) that they work on to EPA specs, or face losing their license. Owners are another matter (we can pretty much do whatever we want; the legality of doing that is still questionable though). Most pre-starto saws were tuned a tad lean when the limiter was hit with the H screw. You can remove the limiter and trim it off, re-insert it (or leave it out) and tune the saw properly. By properly, there is a section in most Stihl WS manuals on how to tune a saw w/o the limiter caps in place. After that you are 'supposed' to re-install the limiters and de-tune them to EPA requirements. I skip that last step myself.

I believe it is that crazy (in the US) - and that many dealers failed to do it even before it became illegal (remember the 5100S syndrome?). A really good dealer will do it anyway, just not tell about it.

This is of course one of the main reasons that Autotune and the rather silly "strato" engines have became so common, as they earn the brands that use them some leeway regarding their other models, vs. the EPA.

The brands that don't use those systems are in trouble, and it only will get worse. Very restrictive muffler systems may save the situation for a while, at the cost of power, but I doubt it will last long. We have observed Dolmar having trouble with coping with the EPA for almost 10 years now - but I believe there are other brands that are worse off (and it isn't Husky or Stihl). Stihl pays Husky to use variants of their systems, but I don't believe any other brands do that (or are allowed to).

The fact that chainsaws are totally irrelevant regarding the general pollution isn't a factor to the EPA - it only is about making excuses for their own existence. When they no longer could do anything with what really matters, they had to find new scrap-goats to torment.

 

[LittleLebowski]

The fact that chainsaws are totally irrelevant regarding the general pollution isn't a factor to the EPA - it only is about making excuses for their own existence. When they no longer could do anything with what really matters, they had to find new scrap-goats to torment.

Nice to see a European that understands the EPA better than many Americans. Great post!

 

[OldJack]

When ever the EPA comes out with new regulations the Canadians say me too, me too.

 

[SawTroll]

When ever the EPA comes out with new regulations the Canadians say me too, me too.

Politicians everywhere are hunting for "green points", regardless if they are totally irrelevant (the politicians, and/or the points).

It is about (but not quite), the same as banning guns because some people are bad, while the guns themselves aren't - and the bad guys will find them anyway, while the good ones aren't allowed to...

 

[LittleLebowski]

Politicians everywhere are hunting for "green points", regardless if they are totally irrelevant (the politicians, and/or the points).

It is about (but not quite), the same as banning guns because some people are bad, while the guns themselves aren't - and the bad guys will find them anyway, while the good ones aren't allowed to...

Furiously hitting the Like button.

 

[SawTroll]

....

This is of course one of the main reasons that Autotune and the rather silly "strato" engines have became so common, as they earn the brands that use them some leeway regarding their other models, vs. the EPA.

... .

I want to elaborate a bit on this, as I believe the main reasons that the "strato" saws often outperform their non-strato counterparts is that the brands wanted them to, and lowered the "safety" margins, that used to be very large.
This fits with the fact that the saw "builders" can't make the same gains to the "strato" saws, as they can with the older saws - typically exemplified with the 346xp vs. the 550xp.

 

[ANewSawyer]

Man, this is the best thread on here in a while. Good info. Makes a person glad they can do their own small engine work!

 

[Rockjock]

When ever the EPA comes out with new regulations the Canadians say me too, me too.

Well they are not going to make a special saw just for us Canadians. Besides there is not rule that says the dealer can not adjust the carb to make it run better. Now saying that I feel Stihl has them dialed in pretty good since we have not had many issues with saws running too lean.

 

[SawTroll]

Well they are not going to make a special saw just for us Canadians. Besides there is not rule that says the dealer can not adjust the carb to make it run better. Now saying that I feel Stihl has them dialed in pretty good since we have not had many issues with saws running too lean.

As I said, the brands that have many strato and Autotune units in their line-up likely have more leeway to not set their non-strato saws too lean, than those that haven't.

At least it used to be that way.

 

[Chris-PA]

I want to elaborate a bit on this, as I believe the main reasons that the "strato" saws often outperform their non-strato counterparts is that the brands wanted them to, and lowered the "safety" margins, that used to be very large.
This fits with the fact that the saw "builders" can't make the same gains to the "strato" saws, as they can with the older saws - typically exemplified with the 346xp vs. the 550xp.

Strato saws have many advantages in terms of performance. Because there is less fuel lost out the exhaust port the designer has more leeway to chose port timing for performance benefit. They also have lots of intake area. Combined with a feedback fuel system there are further gains, because unlike the oft repeated nonsense of more fuel =more power, in fact there is a very narrow range of fuel/air ratio that makes power. More air, combined with the correct amount of fuel, makes more power.

Strato allows better volumetric efficiency (more air), and AT gives the right amount of fuel, which is not possible with traditional chainsaw carbs, because they cannot hold a fixed fuel/air ratio.

Some builders can get gains from stratos, but it's tougher because they are not so compromised to begin with, and also because there are not that many who have taken the time to really understand how they work and develop techniques to improve them.

As I said, the brands that have many strato and Autotune units in their line-up likely have more leeway to not set their non-strato saws too lean, than those that haven't.

At least it used to be that way.

That's true, except for the "set" part. The fuel/air ratio AT isn't so much set, as it is a feedback system. It continually looks at the results and optimizes the fuel ratio for the conditions. There is no need to try to make that different in different markets, as the correct value is set by physics and chemistry, not regulation.

 

[SawTroll]

....
That's true, except for the "set" part. The fuel/air ratio AT isn't so much set, as it is a feedback system. It continually looks at the results and optimizes the fuel ratio for the conditions. There is no need to try to make that different in different markets, as the correct value is set by physics and chemistry, not regulation.

"Set too lean" in my post was about non-strato (and of course non-Autotune) saws.

 

[Chris-PA]

"Set too lean" in my post was about non-strato (and of course non-Autotune) saws.

Got it - my error!

 

[windthrown]

I believe it is that crazy (in the US) - and that many dealers failed to do it even before it became illegal (remember the 5100S syndrome?). A really good dealer will do it anyway, just not tell about it.

This is of course one of the main reasons that Autotune and the rather silly "strato" engines have became so common, as they earn the brands that use them some leeway regarding their other models, vs. the EPA.

The brands that don't use those systems are in trouble, and it only will get worse. Very restrictive muffler systems may save the situation for a while, at the cost of power, but I doubt it will last long. We have observed Dolmar having trouble with coping with the EPA for almost 10 years now - but I believe there are other brands that are worse off (and it isn't Husky or Stihl). Stihl pays Husky to use variants of their systems, but I don't believe any other brands do that (or are allowed to).

The fact that chainsaws are totally irrelevant regarding the general pollution isn't a factor to the EPA - it only is about making excuses for their own existence. When they no longer could do anything with what really matters, they had to find new scrap-goats to torment.

Sadly the real reason the EPA got involved with small engines in the US was because of the John Deere lobby. JD thought that they had the market cornered on clean 2-stroke engine technology. But after Husky and Stihl rapidly responded with Strato and Xtroq engines, JD bailed out of small engine power tools all together. Most JD dealers around here now sell Stihl and Honda hand power tools. Talk about a full circle bite in the ass.

I do not like any of the strato/xtorq engines myself, and I got rid of all of them except my baby 211 (which is actually a pretty good saw for its size, way better than the 210 was). They are harder to tune, harder to work on, and tend to be cold blooded.

I also got myself a EUROPEAN 361 now. It came in the mail today. A Canuck Arctic Made in Germany model. It has a faster response than my other Amerikan 361s, though the tad more power is not really that noticeable over my other stock 361. I gave it an EPA limiter-ectomy and a new spark plug, and re-tuned it richer with my E0 super gas and 42:1 oil with a 25 inch bar. It runs like a champ. It is all OEM and stock, he way I like to buy them. I did not need an arctic saw, let alone another 361, but it was the only way I could get a Euro model 361 w/o paying a ransom importing one from Europe (the Brazilian models have the American engine). I bought it off this site, actually. So now I have a genuine Troll saw.

 

[windthrown]

As for Dolmar and the 5100s, I am not sure of that was the EPA to blame, or just the crappy US gas. As I understood it, they built the saws in Germany and tuned them on the high octane E0 gas available in Germany (that high an octane gas is not available here). The dealers here were supposed to re-/de-tune them with US mid-grade gas, but most did not do that. So they burned up runnimg too lean. There was also a problem with the o-ring on the carb sucking in air as well as I recall.

 

[CR888]

As much as I do not like CAT mufflers and carbs with different anti-tamper screws as a result of EPA regulation, without regulations and new rules manufacturers would not evolve their products at a pace we like. Strato tech has some great aspects which we can thank the EPA for along with AT/MT systems. Its not all bad but the company's that fail to invest in R&D that use 'bandaid' solutions like CAT mufflers are what I hate most. The 2stroke looked kinda doomed for a while due to its inherent design but thankfully with new technology the 2T engine will be around in the future. Had strato tech came out years ago 2T bikes and outboards would not have been replaced so much by big heavy 4T engines.

 

[LegDeLimber]

Just my .02 from over here in the peanut gallery, is all.

What still puzzles me is, reading here about dealers not having the basic computer with the cord(s) and factory software.

Let me say that I'm still very much in the "NO auto-tronic carburetors for me" crowd.

But software controlled devices are here nowdays.

...and the manufacturers continually allowing dealers to not have at least a minimal ability to connect to the saw and read some data fields to see what is happening,
Just simply baffles me.
How many years have these saws been on the shelves for sale now?
How is not having some bare minimum diagnostics capability, in a service shop,
still considered an acceptable way to handle the equipment when you're trying/need to gain user/market acceptance?

could be mistaken, But I honestly believe that getting the service centers up to at least some baseline servicing capabilities
Would go a long way towards sorting out these lingering problems.

And doggonit, the tinkerer in me really wants to see these things working properly!!

 

[SawTroll]

As for Dolmar and the 5100s, I am not sure of that was the EPA to blame, or just the crappy US gas. As I understood it, they built the saws in Germany and tuned them on the high octane E0 gas available in Germany (that high an octane gas is not available here). The dealers here were supposed to re-/de-tune them with US mid-grade gas, but most did not do that. So they burned up runnimg too lean. There was also a problem with the o-ring on the carb sucking in air as well as I recall.

Engine cooling also was an issue with those saws - but I believe it was the (uncorrected) lean factory setting that was the main factor.

 

[SawTroll]

....

...and the manufacturers continually allowing dealers to not have at least a minimal ability to connect to the saw and read some data fields to see what is happening,
Just simply baffles me.
How many years have these saws been on the shelves for sale now?
How is not having some bare minimum diagnostics capability, in a service shop,
still considered an acceptable way to handle the equipment when you're trying/need to gain user/market acceptance?

....

As I understand it, it is a dealer related issue (when it still is an issue), and not a brand one (at least with Husky).

 

[rageej]

The 391 is a homeowner saw. If you are milling with one, that is what I would expect: failure. I would not base my opinion on Stihl (or Husky) on a cheap clamshell engine saw bearing failing (milling or not). Many bearing failures are simply from people tightening chains on saws when they are HOT, and the clutch side bearing fails from running chains too tight when the cool off and shrink. Doi! Also people run saws with crappy premix oil (TC-W3, generic garbage, or 100:1) and crappy gas (mostly old gas). Or even straight gas. Then they wonder why they fail. Cannot blame the saws for those failures.

As for Xtroq/Strato, that is another story. As are Autotune/Mtronic saws. I run mostly pre-EPA saws and I use an orange screwdriver to tune them, as well as good E0 supreme gas with JASO FD oil at 42:1, and my saws last, seemingly forever. Even 211, 290 and 310 homeowner saws, which I have run the absolute snot out of, which have cheap clamshell engines and the 211 even has a strato engine in it.

JASO FA – This is the lowest 2 stroke oil spec that tests lubricating capability, detergents, initial torque and exhaust smoke.

JASO FB – This spec tests the same things as JASO FA but is a slightly higher standard.

JASO FC – This spec has the same level of tests as JASO-FB for lubricating capability and initial torque. But it has much higher standards for detergents and exhaust smoke.

JASO FD – This spec is almost the same as the JASO-FC spec but with much higher detergent capabilities.