Can't afford the synthetic oil.

[CR888]

Your funny
http://www.arboristsite.com/community/threads/synthetics-vs-castor-oil.247815/#post-4586001

Good post and certainly a little info there for the uninformed. l normally agree with 7 on most things and value his posting on AS but on this issue l am sorry l disagree and do NOT believe expensive 100% synthetic offers 'better' engine protection at all period. A semi synthetic blend however will kinda give you the best of both worlds. My view is exactly that....my view and l accept that builders who have modified saws for me ie. Brad S & M/Mind do not share my view and l am completely ok with that. lf we all thought the same and had the same opinions forums like this would be far less interesting.

 

[mdavlee]

Easy, no need to get nasty. They're many reasons why some of these oils don't have the higher ratings. In many instances race oils have only an API TC rating, which is a pretty good rating in it's own right FYI. Take onto consideration all of these ratings play a part in advertising.

Most of it has to do with smoke output, which is often do to a higher flame point. A higher flame point is almost always an indication of film strength and higher viscosity's. Oils that meet JASO FD rating often have higher amounts of solvents and dispersants. You see it's a bit of tradeoff. The FD oils may produce a little less smoke and emissions, however they don't come close to the having the same film strength of the ester based racing oil. The JASO FD rating has less to do with lubrication than it does with emissions.

I ppersonally have seen no indications of corrosion or rust running any oil, even on a few cranks sitting in my parts box. Corrosion is not an issue.

WOW back on AS for like two days and already an oil thread, guess I haven't missed much lol.

There's a lot of them lately.

 

[7sleeper]

Seasonal motocross/enduro riders have had many complaints from moisture causing problems inside crankcases. In Australia still offers 3 oils...hp(regular dino fb), HP semi synth GD/FD and the expensive full synthetic HP ultra FB/GB. Why sleeper does the fully 100% synthetic only offer an FB rating which is the same as their cheap old dino stuff??? Why is the semi synthetic a FD rated oil???? As far as I understood, Stihl HP ultra, is marked only as FB because it fullfills the "blue angel" award as very environment friedly(80% deterioration in 21 days). I assume that that has to do with the rating.
Why does Belray 100% ester full synthetic HR1 not even put a rating on their oil???? Starting to get the drift yet??? Stop listening to marketing!!

The funny thing is that the international norms are never used for marketing, as far as I have seen! They are often just standing there out of "accident" it seems. Because no one knows what they mean and what they don't mean. So if a company chooses to have it's oil tested or not is simply, it often seems, a coincidence.
Those who know and understand what norms are can use them accordingly. But of course they are never the saviour. I propogate them because they are often the only objective measurement for uninformed to oriente their purchase.
I did a little write up what the norms mean a while ago I'll just paste it here.

1. fullsynthetic for air cooled engines
2. fullfills the folowing norms API TC, JASO FC/FD, ISO L-EGD

Then it's ok for me. The above norms dictate

Specification after ISO-L-Norm (European norm)
Class => engine Performance
ISO-L-EGB (Global GB) => middle(= JASO FB)
ISO-L-EGC (Global GC) => middle and smokeless (= JASO FC)
ISO-L-EGD (Global GD) => high performance and smokeless (> JASO FD)

Specification after API-Norm (US norm)
Class => engine Performance
API-TA (TSC-1) => Mopeds
API-TB (TSC-2) => Motorscooters and Motorcycles
API-TC (TSC-3) => high performance engines
API-TD (TSC-4) => Outboardengines equivalent to NMMA TC-WII

Specification after JASO-Norm (Japanese norm)
Class => engine Performance
JASO (M345) FA => low
JASO (M345) FB => middle
JASO (M345) FC => middle and smokeless
JASO (M345) FD => high performance and smokeless

Translated by me from the german wikipedia page. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmieröl

Stihl HP Ultra does NOT fullfill the top norms!

Oil threads are funny. Just out of interest when has anyone experienced an 'oil' related failure??? l mean a failure directly related to oil quality not quantity. l certainly never have and during the life of a saw one could save enough money buying a quality non synthetic oil to probably replace the saw itself. YES there IS some benefits from 100% synthetic oil however the negatives far outway the positives lMO.

Good post and certainly a little info there for the uninformed. l normally agree with 7 on most things and value his posting on AS but on this issue l am sorry l disagree and do NOT believe expensive 100% synthetic offers 'better' engine protection at all period. A semi synthetic blend however will kinda give you the best of both worlds. My view is exactly that....my view and l accept that builders who have modified saws for me ie. Brad S & M/Mind do not share my view and l am completely ok with that. lf we all thought the same and had the same opinions forums like this would be far less interesting.

There never has ever been any scientific valid comparison between 2 stroke oil types that I am aware of. There have been many research projects, often privately funded, which often propogate the supiriority of full synthetic, but never at a truely scientific level. Which one is better? I don't know.
But in comparison in the 4 stroke engine world, full synthetic is clearly the winner. So there might be some validity behind it.

Is there a bad oil? I don't believe so. I see the majority of problems rated due to 1. old mix , 2. wrong carb settings and 3. no oil at all.

Often cost is mentioned and one of the deal breakers if one looks at the major brands and their products! But that is for me when the norms become interesting. I buy "no name" oil. Just the own brand of a motorcycle store. They are a very big chain of stores so they obviously can afford their own oil lines in 2 stroke and 4 stroke! So is the oil there good yes or no? That is when the norms become attractive again. I pay for 4 litres, on twice yearly sale, of their fullsynthetic JASO FD, ATI TC, ISO-L-EDG oil almost the same as for 1 litre Stihl HP Ultra! So am I buying a bad oil? I don't believe so.

7

 

[sunfish]

Oil threads are cool...

 

[Chris-PA]

Oil threads are funny. Just out of interest when has anyone experienced an 'oil' related failure??? l mean a failure directly related to oil quality not quantity. l certainly never have and during the life of a saw one could save enough money buying a quality non synthetic oil to probably replace the saw itself. YES there IS some benefits from 100% synthetic oil however the negatives far outway the positives lMO.

No failure but I have had some disturbing carbon build up running multipurpose (marine/air cooled) oil. I won't do that again. Now I just go by the rating. My Dad's 455 which has always run on 50:1 FD rated Echo Powerblend had a lot of dark, fairly soft carbon in the exhaust port. The piston, ring and cylinder look phenomenal though. But I don't know how the mixture was set.

 

[pete_86]

Oil threads are funny. Just out of interest when has anyone experienced an 'oil' related failure??? l mean a failure directly related to oil quality not quantity. l certainly never have and during the life of a saw one could save enough money buying a quality non synthetic oil to probably replace the saw itself. YES there IS some benefits from 100% synthetic oil however the negatives far outway the positives lMO.

Yes, thank you sir! That's one point I'm making, but of course many have mentioned cranks and bearings etc being expensive. I got suckered into the synthetics when I bought me saw and Stihl was doing the extended warranty thing. Than like I did yrs before the price starts hurting. Like, when I did the math I'm paying $4 for premium gas and than $25 a qrt for oil that means it's $6 a gallon. I knew it'd drink gas but it's amazing what it'll go through milling. LMAO! Now I know I'm strapped for cash, but think about how many people get outraged over reg gas prices. All adds up for sure.

So the wally world syntec 2 cycle is maybe $2 a qrt. If I burn $75 a yr in oil with belray, I'm at $6 wally world. That's a fair amount of sawing though.

 

[walexa07]

Stihl HP Ultra does NOT fullfill the top norms!

I don't know that this is true - just that it has not been tested.

Waylan

 

[pete_86]

I kinda think of what my girl would say when I buy stuff, if I can't tell her than maybe I should rethink. If I told her how much I paid for Sithl ultra or the $25 qrt belray she'd be like WTF. My truck was 40 times price of saw and I run $4 a qrt synthetic wally world in that. Maybe 180k mi and going strong.

Crap I gotta get off of here, lol. Rechecked my math and belray is adding $3 a gallon to my fuel costs. Good grief! If I keep hitting the milling thing hard prob burn easy 32 gal in a yr. Regardless of ones income I know a lot of guys rather buy pair of new boots than burn it up on high dollar synthetics. I guess to each their own.

Anyone know bailey's ratings or who makes it? I'm going to just run that and try to meet in the middle. Even milling, I'm only putting maybe 100hrs on saw a yr. I suspect a band mill in a yr or two than my saw will see very little use other than bucking and maybe some firewood. Also like others have said, sell it when it gets old and I agree sucking in dirty air and bad carb tuning most likely cause damage. seems like the wally world is made by mobil and prob really good stuff for those who are super cheap.

This thread has gone off stray, expected it too. Did start out just looking for a nice option for those of us cutting costs. Many thank to all who've listed their options and for those who don't mind the debating and technical stuff lets keep it going. Good read for those interested.

 

[mdavlee]

I've seen the inside of a 7900 that was fed a good diet of lucas semi synthetic here lately and it was great on the inside. I think it's $9 a quart.

 

[mdavlee]

93 here was $3.59 last time I bought it last week.

Klotz original $1.50/gal
Maxima K2 $2.50/gal
H1R $2.50/gal
Lucas $1.25/gal
Stihl ultra $2.25/gal
Motul 800 $2.17/gal

 

[KenJax Tree]

I just bought a gallon of Lucas for $30...i'm gonna run a gallon of it and see how i like it that might be my new oil. Half the price of K2

 

[mdavlee]

I just bought a gallon of Lucas for $30...i'm gonna run a gallon of it and see how i like it that might be my new oil. Half the price of K2

I may give it a try the end of the year after I run out of maxima. I just bought 3 liters.

 

[KenJax Tree]

Yeah i bought a 6.4oz bottle and used 2 gallons of mix first, it has no smoke and little smell so i went ahead and bought a gallon of it.

 

[mdavlee]

Yeah i bought a 6.4oz bottle and used 2 gallons of mix first, it has no smoke and little smell so i went ahead and bought a gallon of it.

Hedgerow has been using it for a while now. He works his saws hard and I've seen the inside of one. I may give it a try.

 

[7sleeper]

I don't know that this is true - just that it has not been tested.

Waylan

But those that have been viewing topics like this have observed that the rating has been the same for quite a few years! And yet a company like stihl doesn't have the funds to pay for testing is highly unlikely. So I simply presume that the rating is correct.
As I mentioned above, I presume that the additives needed to reach the top ratings simply do not correspond with the ability to be labeld environmently friendly!

7

 

[CR888]

One main reason a oil will not have a rating is the cost of the testing to get that certification, it a six digit some. ls it just me or does anyone else notice how easier their ope starts when using mineral based oil? l find its a night/day difference in all my gear (25+ OPE). Morning 7!! lts 9:15 am here and a sunny Sunday morning!!

 

[7sleeper]

Sorry my friend but the certification is actually really cheap! As soon as an additive has the certification any oil rebrander can claim it's properties. And since Stihl doesn't make it's own oil but only have it made by another company it is a mute point. Further any certification needed is a 100% tax refundable investment, so if they invest or not has absolutely nothing to do with money. And last but not least, does anyone really seriously believe that a company like Stihl couldn't afford it!!! I mean they make so much money every year they wouldn't even notice the amount.

7

 

[Bilge Rat LT 20]

Yamalube in outboards has a little more deposits than the Pennz.
The yamalube has more Moly in it than the other outboard oils.

 

[ChoppyChoppy]

It's around $4.15 a gal here. 87 octane is $3.95

93 here was $3.59 last time I bought it last week.

Klotz original $1.50/gal
Maxima K2 $2.50/gal
H1R $2.50/gal
Lucas $1.25/gal
Stihl ultra $2.25/gal
Motul 800 $2.17/gal

 

[mdavlee]

It's around $4.15 a gal here. 87 octane is $3.95

Regular here is $3.10-3.25 depending on what station.