Stihl quality headed downhill bad

[rageej]

As I understand it, the non-strato saws often need to be tuned leaner than they should be, for EPA inspection reasons. Then it is up to the dealer and owner to correct the situation....

What software is used to adjust these carburetors and how do we as end users attain the software. Are we left at the mercy of the local dealer? I have some local dealers who know their stuff, I would trust a diesel mechanic with software before these old boys though.

 

[Chris-PA]

What software is used to adjust these carburetors

Maybe it's just the words used, but you don't adjust the carbs using software at all. You apparently can read some information which may be helpful in diagnostics, but the carbs adjust themselves. They are not "set" - a feedback system monitors some measurement (in this case rpm), and adjusts the fuel outlet based on an algorithm that has been programmed into the micro. Any initial parameters you reset or set would be quickly overwritten once the engine starts running.

Where I think there is a basic problem is that the system can adjust for a remarkably wide amount of issues, such as small air leaks. With a non feedback carb there is at least a chance that the operator might notice the saw running differently, and stop to investigate (yeah, sure). Here, the system will adjust and keep the mixture correct, at least when it is able to run in closed loop mode. But when it's not in feedback (acceleration, etc.), or when it eventually reaches the end of it's adjustment range, then it can no longer compensate. By that time the problem may be much worse. It really should have an "idiot light" to indicate that it's getting out of range and something is wrong.

 

[rageej]

Maybe it's just the words used, but you don't adjust the carbs using software at all. You apparently can read some information which may be helpful in diagnostics, but the carbs adjust themselves. They are not "set" - a feedback system monitors some measurement (in this case rpm), and adjusts the fuel outlet based on an algorithm that has been programmed into the micro. Any initial parameters you reset or set would be quickly overwritten once the engine starts running.

Where I think there is a basic problem is that the system can adjust for a remarkably wide amount of issues, such as small air leaks. With a non feedback carb there is at least a chance that the operator might notice the saw running differently, and stop to investigate (yeah, sure). Here, the system will adjust and keep the mixture correct, at least when it is able to run in closed loop mode. But when it's not in feedback (acceleration, etc.), or when it eventually reaches the end of it's adjustment range, then it can no longer compensate. By that time the problem may be much worse. It really should have an "idiot light" to indicate that it's getting out of range and something is wrong.

Perhaps someone could figure out a way to implement an arduino system in these saws.

 

[SawTroll]

What software is used to adjust these carburetors and how do we as end users attain the software. Are we left at the mercy of the local dealer? I have some local dealers who know their stuff, I would trust a diesel mechanic with software before these old boys though.

The diagnostic kits are listed in the IPLs for the saws, and can be bought. However, I believe it is somewhat limited what he can use it for, without access to Husqvarnas dealer network, for updates etc.

@spike60 and @tlandrum likely can provide more info, if they see this.

So far, I don't think Stihl has offered such kits - however it has been posted on a UK forum that the Husky kit can be used, at least for a basic resetting? I doubt that is a simple "plug and play" thing though....

 

[rageej]

Oh that is a good point. I should download the IPL. I have never had the chance to look at one these auto saws broke down to see where the sensor is or how it determines current mixture. Is it as simple as a resistance sensitive to oxygen saturation?


Sent using mental telepathy.

 

[Rockjock]

661's are a joke. They are recalled here cant get them, not that i would ever want one again. Husqvarna are laughing all the way to the bank so many are changing colours they have sold out of 395's.

What is the recall for? Stihl.co.nz still shows the 661 as an active number. Are you sure a Husqvarna dealer was not pulling your leg?

 

[Rockjock]

Perhaps someone could figure out a way to implement an arduino system in these saws.

The software that stihl offers the dealers can only diagnose the issue, it does not allow us to edit the equipments software. Now they are talking about giving it the ability to program coils in the future. They said they would have 4-5 coils and with the MDG-1 we would be able to program the coils for the saws. Thus cutting down on the amounts of coils one would have to have in inventory. The ability for the end user to tweek or over tweek a saw is somthing I think better left to the experts. Then again it could be like a cell phone ROM once tried and true we could " upload " it into our saws. I can see the aftermarket parts suppliers licking their collective chops over this idea!

 

[Rockjock]

Sadly the real reason the EPA got involved with small engines in the US was because of the John Deere lobby. JD thought that they had the market cornered on clean 2-stroke engine technology. But after Husky and Stihl rapidly responded with Strato and Xtroq engines, JD bailed out of small engine power tools all together. Most JD dealers around here now sell Stihl and Honda hand power tools. Talk about a full circle bite in the ass.

I do not like any of the strato/xtorq engines myself, and I got rid of all of them except my baby 211 (which is actually a pretty good saw for its size, way better than the 210 was). They are harder to tune, harder to work on, and tend to be cold blooded.

I also got myself a EUROPEAN 361 now. It came in the mail today. A Canuck Arctic Made in Germany model. It has a faster response than my other Amerikan 361s, though the tad more power is not really that noticeable over my other stock 361. I gave it an EPA limiter-ectomy and a new spark plug, and re-tuned it richer with my E0 super gas and 42:1 oil with a 25 inch bar. It runs like a champ. It is all OEM and stock, he way I like to buy them. I did not need an arctic saw, let alone another 361, but it was the only way I could get a Euro model 361 w/o paying a ransom importing one from Europe (the Brazilian models have the American engine). I bought it off this site, actually. So now I have a genuine Troll saw.

Umm its may be a not a euo saw WT. All the 361's , 441's , 461's , 661's were made in Germany. A true German one has a different muffler.

1135 140 0654 w/o the spark screen. I will look at a 361 I have at work but I am almost positive that the cylinder the the same as mine. I have run both in stock form and I agree the Euro model does run a little better but I feel that is the mufflers doing. IMO

 

[Chris-PA]

I have never had the chance to look at one these auto saws broke down to see where the sensor is or how it determines current mixture. Is it as simple as a resistance sensitive to oxygen saturation?

There is no sensor, other than rpm. Periodically it leans out the mixture for a moment and watches how the rpm changes. If it's tuned correctly the rpms should go up, probably by some set amount.

The ability for the end user to tweek or over tweek a saw is somthing I think better left to the experts. Then again it could be like a cell phone ROM once tried and true we could " upload " it into our saws. I can see the aftermarket parts suppliers licking their collective chops over this idea!

The most they could do is force the mixture to be a little richer or leaner, which is to say wrong.

 

[SawTroll]

Umm its may be a not a euo saw WT. All the 361's , 441's , 461's , 661's were made in Germany. A true German one has a different muffler.

1135 140 0654 w/o the spark screen. I will look at a 361 I have at work but I am almost positive that the cylinder the the same as mine. I have run both in stock form and I agree the Euro model does run a little better but I feel that is the mufflers doing. IMO

The part number for the cylinder used to be different between the German and U.S. "made " (assembled really) 361s, in addition to the muffler.

 

[windthrown]

Umm its may be a not a euo saw WT. All the 361's , 441's , 461's , 661's were made in Germany. A true German one has a different muffler.

1135 140 0654 w/o the spark screen. I will look at a 361 I have at work but I am almost positive that the cylinder the the same as mine. I have run both in stock form and I agree the Euro model does run a little better but I feel that is the mufflers doing. IMO

Huh? Sorry, but most (if not all) 361s sold in the states were made in the USA at the Virginia plant. They all have a SN starting with a 2. I have owned and flipped dozens of 361s. None of them were made in Germany.

 

[Rockjock]

Huh? Sorry, but most (if not all) 361s sold in the states were made in the USA at the Virginia plant. They all have a SN starting with a 2. I have owned and flipped dozens of 361s. None of them were made in Germany.

This I did not know! I am surprised actually! All the ones I have sold have the made in Germany sticker on them BUT have the spark screen. Mine back in Germany does not. Most interesting!!!

 

[7sleeper]

Strato saws have many advantages in terms of performance. Because there is less fuel lost out the exhaust port the designer has more leeway to chose port timing for performance benefit. They also have lots of intake area. Combined with a feedback fuel system there are further gains, because unlike the oft repeated nonsense of more fuel =more power, in fact there is a very narrow range of fuel/air ratio that makes power. More air, combined with the correct amount of fuel, makes more power.

Strato allows better volumetric efficiency (more air), and AT gives the right amount of fuel, which is not possible with traditional chainsaw carbs, because they cannot hold a fixed fuel/air ratio.

Some builders can get gains from stratos, but it's tougher because they are not so compromised to begin with, and also because there are not that many who have taken the time to really understand how they work and develop techniques to improve them...

What I have understood from a maker here (blsnelling) is that the most performance gains are achieved, when modifieing electro carb strato saws, is to remove!!! the strato divider! So effeciently turning a strato saw into a conventional saw. How much air or fuel is comming into the cylinder I cannot say, but clearly there is still something going on that hasn't been cleared here in this thread at all.

Further how much fuel efficieancy has to do with engine design I cannot say, but there was a test done by Stihl with a german review magazin where clearly the Dolmar 421 is MORE fuel efficient compared to the Husqvarna 445 and only marginaly beat by the Stihl 251, both which are strato designs!
www.shindaiwa.de/presse/motorsaegentest.pdf

So personally I donot agree with the crowd at all.

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[Chris-PA]

What I have understood from a maker here (blsnelling) is that the most performance gains are achieved, when modifieing electro carb strato saws, is to remove!!! the strato divider! So effeciently turning a strato saw into a conventional saw. How much air or fuel is comming into the cylinder I cannot say, but clearly there is still something going on that hasn't been cleared here in this thread at all.

I know Brad has got very good gains with that approach, but I don't think it is the only approach. It also does not indicate that removing the strato function is what created the gains, rather just that opening up the intake was beneficial and the strato ports were in the way.

On the GZ4000-based engine I ported I increased the strato air valve duration while leaving the conventional case intake alone, and it runs rather well too.

Further how much fuel efficieancy has to do with engine design I cannot say, but there was a test done by Stihl with a german review magazin where clearly the Dolmar 421 is MORE fuel efficient compared to the Husqvarna 445 and only marginaly beat by the Stihl 251, both which are strato designs!
www.shindaiwa.de/presse/motorsaegentest.pdf

Unfortunately I cannot read German, so I can't tell if they just measured fuel use, or put the engines on a dyno and measured fuel consumption for power output, which would be the only comparison of any relevance. Still, there are a couple of points to look at:

1. The 421 is an open port engine that needed a cat to pass emissions (although it has 6 transfers). A cat does nothing to reduce fuel use, it just burns up fuel lost out the exhaust. The Stratos don't need cats, so there is evidence that they lose less fuel out the exhaust, which is the intent of the design. Therefore we are asked to believe that the engine that has a problem losing fuel out the exhaust is somehow also more efficient?
   
2. Husqvarna and still have spent a lot of money developing strato engines, and they do have dynos. In fact, Dolmar has developed one, and so has Echo. Why would they do this if they could just slap a cat on a conventional engine with a conventional carb?
   
3. Meanwhile you can buy a Chinese made clone of the G3800 branded as a Ryobi RY3716 for less than $110, and it has exactly the same technology as the 421. It's clearly pretty easy to pass the emissions tests now, and I predict you will be seeing far more Chinese clones of Zenoah designs. The question is how much power is lost doing it this way? Strato is a performance upgrade.

EDIT: It looks like they have power plots, so I will try to wade through in spite of the language barrier.

 

[CR888]

I like the intake timing options with the strato design, quite unique and good for power. While Brads mods are good for a decent power increase, fuel consumtion goes way up.

 

[spike60]

The diagnostic kits are listed in the IPLs for the saws, and can be bought. However, I believe it is somewhat limited what he can use it for, without access to Husqvarnas dealer network, for updates etc.

@spike60 and @tlandrum likely can provide more info, if they see this.

So far, I don't think Stihl has offered such kits - however it has been posted on a UK forum that the Husky kit can be used, at least for a basic resetting? I doubt that is a simple "plug and play" thing though....

The diagnostic tool is now referred to as the Common Service Tool, or CST. It is now connected live to the Husky dealer site whenever you use it. You need a username and password every time you want to plug a saw in, for any reason. Pretty much useless for anyone who isn't a dealer.

Gotta comment on something else in this thread. OEM's really can't force any dealer to work on a saw he doesn't want to. Be realistic: They aren't going to cancel a dealer doing good numbers just because he has a falling out with a customer and won't work on the guy's saw. The course they will usually take is to refer the customer to a dealer who is willing to do the work. That solves the problem and also gets the customer away from dealing with a dealer that doesn't want to deal with him. My rep started bringing me saws from dealers who were zeros on the new saws. But I've got plenty of work as it is, and I don't like to score points for the other team. So I told him to send the customers and their saws to me and I'll work on them, but I'm not bailing out the other dealers.

You guys also have to ask yourselves if you really want a reluctant dealer to work on your saw. Especially if it needs major work. Some dealers don't want to do that stuff because they aren't all that capable of doing the work in the first place. The OEM's are well aware that the technology of the new saws is running away from many dealers. Let's face it, there's a lot of dealers who struggled before auto-tune and m-tronic. I suggested that Husky come up with some kind of advanced AT course for those of us who like to stay on top of things. No point for guys like me to sit at a meeting that's geared for the dealers who still don't even know how to plug the thing in.

 

[7sleeper]

Well that makes us feel better about you, that you at least know how to plug in the damn thing...
















Just couldn't resist!



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[opinion]

Like Spike was saying, dealers don't have to work on something they don't want. Just recently STIHL is requiring dealers who sell mtronic or fuel injection units to be equipped with the MDG1 tool. So if you don't wish to work on these units, you have no business selling them. They also offer the MS261 and 362 non-mtronic now.

 

[Vibes]

No, you are dead wrong on this and they cannot 'legally' say whatever they want (at least in the US). They can piss and moan about it, but if you call Stihl INC in VA you can get them to change their tune and in a hurry. You can also make a complaint with the BBB, and they (Stihl, INC) will respond to that very fast as well. I have seen that done myself. Do not let a dealer push you around! Extended or otherwise, they are on the hook for the warranty. And if it is an EPA listed saw part that fails, they are on the hook no matter what happened, even if the saw is sold to someone else (Stihl only warrants a saw to the original buyer, and the warranty is not transferable). The oil issue is a big one and they cannot deny a warranty claim because you did not use their Stihl brand of oil. Period.

Update: BTW, the warranty here in the US has changed over the years. Stihl used to have a 2 year warranty for homeowners and a one year warranty for pros on gas chainsaws. Now its a one year warranty for homeowners (a two year extended warranty is available at the time of sale for homeowners that buy a 6 pack of Stihl oil or a can of MotoMix, which may be where the confusion comes from that you have to use Stihl oil) and 3 months for pros. But it varies on the saw and tool type and user. Attached is the latest warranty sheet from Stihl in the USA. Note that nothing says that you have to use Stihl oil to keep your warranty valid anywhere. Nor do you have to have them tune your saws to keep them warrantied.

I think the first big lawsuit of this kind was filed against John Deere if I'm not mistaken. I'm thinking similar suits were filed against Harley Davidson and others. Most of the decisions were sealed but any big manufacturer can read the writing on the wall.

I just keep my receipts for consumables and jot down service that I do myself. Like when I change oil in my bike or car. So far I have not had any issues but I do know a independent shop owner who got certified mail from attorneys office asking for his credentials and the work he had performed on a customers bike.

 

[steve easy]

What is the recall for? Stihl.co.nz still shows the 661 as an active number. Are you sure a Husqvarna dealer was not pulling your leg?

No 661's on shelf at my stihl dealer. Something about piston issues now, im over it, who knows what the truth is stihl aint saying much.