91 octane OK?

[brenndatomu]

First of all lets educate those that are miss informed about octane ratings and what they are use for....

Beat me to it sb.
Long story short, if an engine needs the octane to combat pre-ignition, then you definitely need it. On the other hand, on any engine that doesn't need it, buying high octane fuel won't hurt anything, but it is a waste of money. Like others have said, it will actually cost you horsepower if you don't really need it, but not enough that anyone could ever "feel" it.

 

[Topbuilder]

Is this an alternative solution?

http://goldwingdocs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14679

Taking out the e-10 yourself?

 

[sb47]

Beat me to it sb.
Long story short, if an engine needs the octane to combat pre-ignition, then you definitely need it. On the other hand, on any engine that doesn't need it, buying high octane fuel won't hurt anything, but it is a waste of money. Like others have said, it will actually cost you horsepower if you don't really need it, but not enough that anyone could ever "feel" it.

I don't need race fuel in my saws. They run just fine with pump gas.
I use race fuel for several reasons.
One, I have it on hand and generally need to use it up before it goes bad.
Two, it is a better quality fuel.
Three, It does have some performance benefits.
My saw has better throttle response and doesn't bog down as much.
Where I really see a difference is when I'm out of race fuel and run pump gas. It becomes very apparent that the race fuel preforms better.

Lead is an additive that is a lubricant that is added to fuel. People don't know that unleaded fuel is actually cheaper to make (but they charge more) (scam!) because they don't have to add the lead.

I have been using race fuel for many years and have never had any issues what so ever.
I have run strait race gas in one of my 4 wheeler race bikes since 07 and it has several thousand hours on it and it dino's the same as it did when it was built.

Very good fuel.

I agree, if you don't need it, it is a wast of money. But you have to try it and see if you notice a difference.
You can usually buy it by the gallon so it wont cost much to try.
The race fuel I use is 105 octane, and I only use it because I have it on hand.
There are race fuels down in the 87 octane range that may work better.

 

[sb47]

I pulled this directly from VP's web site.
It's very interesting and enplanes a lot.




The Four Key Properties of FuelToo often, racers focus only on octane when evaluating the quality of a fuel. Octane is certainly important, but it’s just one of several key fuel properties that should be considered when evaluating and selecting a fuel. It’s entirely possible to generate more horsepower with a lower octane fuel if it’s designed properly with respect to its other key properties. It’s also possible for two fuels to have the same octane rating, but perform very differently due to their other key properties.

1. OCTANE: Octane is simply a rating of a fuel’s ability to resist detonation and/or preignition. It is not so much an indication of a fuel’s ability to make power, but rather a fuel’s ability to make power safely, i.e., without blowing your engine. Octane is rated in Research Octane Numbers (RON), Motor Octane Numbers (MON) and Pump Octane Numbers (R+M/2). A Pump Octane Number is the number you see on the yellow decal at gas stations, representing the average of the fuel’s RON and MON. (See below for a more detailed explanation of how octane numbers are derived and what they represent.)

VP relies on MON numbers because the MON test more accurately simulates racing conditions. Don't be fooled by high RON or R+M/2 numbers. Many companies use these simply because they look higher and are easier to come by because of the test methods. Also bear in mind that the ability of fuel to resist detonation is more than just a function of octane.

2. BURNING SPEED: This is the speed at which fuel releases its energy and is partially a function of a fuel’s vaporization qualities. At high RPMs, there is very little time (real time - not crank rotation) for the fuel to release its energy. Peak cylinder pressure should occur around 20˚ ATDC. If the fuel is still burning after this, it’s not contributing to peak cylinder pressure, which is what the rear wheels see. Because VP’s fuels are designed with a particular focus on vaporization characteristics, most of VP’s fuels—oxygenated or nonoxygenated—vaporize much better than comparable competitive fuels. This means it cools the intake charge, burns faster and yields more efficient combustion. As a result, the “effective” octane rating of VP’s fuels is even higher than the octane test indicates, and they will prevent detonation better than competitive fuels with similar MONs.

3. ENERGY VALUE: Energy value is an expression of the potential energy in fuel. The energy value is measured in BTUs per pound, not per gallon. The difference is important as the air/fuel ratio is in weight, not volume. Generally speaking, VP’s fuels measure high in BTUs per pound and thus, have a higher energy value. This higher energy value will have a positive impact on horsepower at any compression ratio or engine speed.

4. COOLING EFFECT: The cooling effect of fuel is related to the heat of vaporization. The higher a fuel’s heat of vaporization, the better its ability to cool the intake mixture. The superior vaporization characteristics of VP’s fuels make cooling effect one of their key advantages. A better cooling effect can generate some horsepower gains in 4-stroke engines and even bigger gains in 2-stroke engines. VP’s superior cooling effect can also ensure circle track racers maintain power in the longest races and harshest conditions. In virtually any application, the cooling effect of VP’s fuels will help extend engine life.

Understanding these key properties of fuel will better equip you to evaluate fuels for your application. By clicking on your application to the right,
you’ll find a list of VP fuels designed with you in mind, along with the fuels’ relevant characteristics.

Before making a final fuel selection, we encourage you to consult with your VP regional distribution center or VP’s Technical Support Staff.
Be prepared to answer the following questions:

• Is your engine naturally aspirated, turbocharged, blown or using nitrous oxide?
• What is the compression ratio (CR) of your engine?
• Does your engine have O2 sensors or CATS?
• In what series or sanctioning body will you be racing?
• What are their fuel rules, e.g,. are any fuels illegal or do they allow oxygenated fuels?
• In which class will you be racing?

You can be confident that once we understand your application, we’ll find the fuel that will make the most power for your engine!

As an alternative, you can submit a question online to our Tech Support Staff by clicking HERE.

Octane Numbers and What They Represent One of the most frequently asked technical questions we get at VP involves the difference between Motor, Research and R+M/2 Octane Numbers. The next most frequently asked question is why some fuel companies represent their fuels with Motor Octane Numbers, while other companies use Research or R+M/2 Octane Numbers.



Realize first that octane is a measurement of a fuel’s ability to resist detonation—nothing more. The two types of machines used for testing octane—a Motor Octane machine and a Research Octane machine—were designed in the 1930s. They were designed to test for octane numbers from the 0-100 range, therefore, any number above 100 is an extrapolation.

Both of these machines are dinosaurs and are not adequate for today's high tech fuels or engines, but they’re the only means available for testing fuels. These machines are one-cylinder engines with an adjustable head that can move up or down to increase or lower the compression ratio while the engine is running. The Motor and Research machines are the same in this respect, but they differ in several other characteristics. 



The following is a comparison of the two machines used for testing octane numbers:




RPM
INTAKE TEMP.
TIMING

Motor Octane Machine900
300 DEGREES F
VARIABLE BASIC
SETTING 26 DEGREES

Research Octane Machine600
120 DEGREES F
FIXED AT 13 DEGREES
(DOES NOT CHANGE)



As you can see, the Motor Octane machine runs at a higher RPM, higher temperature and more timing. This machine puts more stress on the fuel than a Research machine and more accurately simulates a racing engine. VP Racing Fuels always includes Motor Octane Numbers when promoting its fuels because our fuels are used exclusively for racing applications.

The Research Octane machine will always produce a higher number for the obvious reason that it does not put the same amount of stress on the fuel. This number is used by some fuel companies to trick the racer into thinking the fuel is rated higher, i.e., higher quality, than it really is. The “R+M/2” Octane Number is the average of the Research and Motor Octane numbers for a fuel and is the number displayed with yellow labels on retail level gas pumps.

When comparing fuels for racing purposes make sure to compare Motor Octane Numbers because these are the ones that count in your racing application.Focusing on the MON of each fuel will help ensure you’re comparing apples to apples with regard to octane.

But bear in mind, a fuel’s ability to prevent detonation is a function of more than just octane. For example, VP’s fuels—oxygenated or nonoxygenated—vaporize much better than competitive fuels with comparable octane ratings. This means VP fuels cool the intake charge, burn faster and yield more efficient combustion. As a result, the “effective” octane rating of VP’s fuels is even higher than the rating generated by the octane test. As a result, VP fuels will prevent detonation more effectively than competitive fuels with comparable MONs.

 

[zogger]

Is this an alternative solution?

http://goldwingdocs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14679

Taking out the e-10 yourself?

One member here, sorry forget the screen name, has been doing this for a few years now. At least two old threads on the subject way back.

I think..an easy way to do it..get one of those five gallon water dispensers that go to water fountains. The light blue ones, big jugs, you've seen them. Fill with around 4.5 gallons e10, add a quart of water, let it sit and separate. (I'd put some plastic and a rubber band around the top while it is separating, keep it in a real shady cool spot). Then I'd take a cheap 12 volt fuel pump, one of those like 20- buck ones from the parts store, modified with some long jumper cables maybe, or 10-15 feet of wire with some alligator clips. Stick the inlet hose (you'll need a few feet of fuel line of course) down to the bottom, turn it on (battery like ten feet away upwind...), pump it out into a waste can until it is pure gas. You should be able to see the distinct layer, then dump what is left over, the pure gas, back into your fuel can, and make mix with it, lawnmower action, whatever. Perhaps a bit of octane boost snake oil, whatever.

With that said, I think you could use e10, just keep it in the shade and dump it into a car after a couple weeks. They say a month, I say two weeks, cheap insurance.

If you really only need two three gallons a year for home cutting use, just buy the canned premix. Just hunt it down on sale someplace.

If husky and stihl were smarter, they would go ballz to the wallz to get cheaper one gallon cans of premix out there in the shops and stores, and not for silly ridiculous sums. Those $5 to $9 a quart cans are just too expensive, no need for all that container, we are used to buying fuel by the gallon, that's what should be in the shops and box stores.

I get 93 no ethanol for around $4.50 lately. Ya, that's high, and I don't care, negligible at the end of the year. I am not cutting commercially, so maybe I go through ten to fifteen gallons of year with two stroke mix (saws and trimmers), maybe. Around 20 gallons for the small four stroke mowers(most of my mowing uses diesel in commercial mowers, don't use much gas mowers).

Ok, double that per gallon cost to the manufacturers so they can make some loot, we are at nine bucks now, add some mix oil (they get their mix oil whoesale, call it fifty cents), stick it in a generic one gallon square metal can (what is that buying in quantity, couple bucks?), done. Should retail for around 12 bucks, or less than half what those little quarts cost. They might sell a lot more then if it was more affordable, and I bet they could still make a decent profit on it.

 

[mdavlee]

87 is fine. I've run it in saws with over 200 lbs of compression milling in 90 degree weather.

 

[sunfish]

I tried a couple gallons of 100+ octane race fuel a few years ago & my saws cut slower, had less power.

 

[KenJax Tree]

The VP I've used is this
https://www.magicracing.com/mobile/VP-T4-Racing-Fuel-5-Gallon-Can-93-OctaneUnLeaded_p_115904.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sb47]

One member here, sorry forget the screen name, has been doing this for a few years now. At least two old threads on the subject way back.

I think..an easy way to do it..get one of those five gallon water dispensers that go to water fountains. The light blue ones, big jugs, you've seen them. Fill with around 4.5 gallons e10, add a quart of water, let it sit and separate. (I'd put some plastic and a rubber band around the top while it is separating, keep it in a real shady cool spot). Then I'd take a cheap 12 volt fuel pump, one of those like 20- buck ones from the parts store, modified with some long jumper cables maybe, or 10-15 feet of wire with some alligator clips. Stick the inlet hose (you'll need a few feet of fuel line of course) down to the bottom, turn it on (battery like ten feet away upwind...), pump it out into a waste can until it is pure gas. You should be able to see the distinct layer, then dump what is left over, the pure gas, back into your fuel can, and make mix with it, lawnmower action, whatever. Perhaps a bit of octane boost snake oil, whatever.

With that said, I think you could use e10, just keep it in the shade and dump it into a car after a couple weeks. They say a month, I say two weeks, cheap insurance.

If you really only need two three gallons a year for home cutting use, just buy the canned premix. Just hunt it down on sale someplace.

If husky and stihl were smarter, they would go ballz to the wallz to get cheaper one gallon cans of premix out there in the shops and stores, and not for silly ridiculous sums. Those $5 to $9 a quart cans are just too expensive, no need for all that container, we are used to buying fuel by the gallon, that's what should be in the shops and box stores.

I get 93 no ethanol for around $4.50 lately. Ya, that's high, and I don't care, negligible at the end of the year. I am not cutting commercially, so maybe I go through ten to fifteen gallons of year with two stroke mix (saws and trimmers), maybe. Around 20 gallons for the small four stroke mowers(most of my mowing uses diesel in commercial mowers, don't use much gas mowers).

Ok, double that per gallon cost to the manufacturers so they can make some loot, we are at nine bucks now, add some mix oil (they get their mix oil whoesale, call it fifty cents), stick it in a generic one gallon square metal can (what is that buying in quantity, couple bucks?), done. Should retail for around 12 bucks, or less than half what those little quarts cost. They might sell a lot more then if it was more affordable, and I bet they could still make a decent profit on it.

lol That seems like a lot of trouble!
Fuel does store better in a metal can rather then in a plastic one. Also keep it out of the sunlight and in a cool place.
I bought two of those 100 gallon diamond plate fuel storage tanks from TS to keep fuel on hand.
I bought them many years ago before gas was spiked.
Since ethanol laced fuel doesn't store like fuel used to, I keep them empty until a storm is bearing down and depending on the storm dictates how much fuel I'll stock up on.
The last hurricane we had I was without electricity for 12 days. I kept 3 generators going for 3 houses.

 

[sb47]

I tried a couple gallons of 100+ octane race fuel a few years ago & my saws cut slower, had less power.

Could be you didn't need it or you used the wrong fuel. Octane is not the only factor to consider when choosing a fuel.

 

[Whitespider]

I see your still at it! lol Your a piece of work!

You think I'm joking?? Or making it up??
Diesel fuel has an octane rating of something less than 30... that's correct, less than 30... about the same as any oil.
Do your own research man... and then come back and prove me wrong.
Oils, like diesel fuel, are not anywhere near as volatile as gasoline, they don't vaporize near as readily as gasoline, and they are combusted in a different way, a higher octane is not required to control ignition... but cetane is used to control quality of burn.
Oil is much, much, much lower in octane than gasoline... and that's a damn fact. Your information is flat-azz wrong.
*

 

[sb47]

You think I'm joking?? Or making it up??
Diesel fuel has an octane rating of something less than 30... that's correct, less than 30... about the same as any oil.
Do your own research man... and then come back and prove me wrong.
Oils, like diesel fuel, are not anywhere near as volatile as gasoline, they don't vaporize near as readily as gasoline, and they are combusted in a different way, a higher octane is not required to control ignition... but cetane is used to control quality of burn.
Oil is much, much, much lower in octane than gasoline... and that's a damn fact. Your information is flat-azz wrong.
*

I have done my homework! You have it backwards my friend. all you have to do is read the information from companies like VP. There is your proof my friend. Where is your proof? Where did you get your information?
You asked me to prove it! I think I just did.
Lets see you prove your statement!

 

[Whitespider]

all you have to do is read the information from companies like VP.

Where does VP state that diesel fuel, or any oil, is higher in octane than gasoline??
If diesel fuel had an octane rating of... say 80... your diesel engine likely wouldn't run.
Actually, you only have a partial understanding of the function of octane in fuel... much of what you state as fact in nothing but false assumptions.
Maybe this from a grad student at the Paul Scherrer Institute, Laboratory of Atmospheric Chemistry will convince you of your error.
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2000-10/973012182.Ch.r.html

And there's this that states...
"Cetane number (diesel fuel) and octane number (gasoline) both measure the tendency of the fuel to ignite spontaneously. In the cetane number scale, high values represent fuels that ignite readily and, therefore, perform better in a diesel engine. In the octane number scale, high values represent fuels that resist spontaneous ignition and, therefore, have less tendency to knock in a gasoline engine. Because both scales were developed so that higher numbers represent higher quality for the respective use, high cetane number fuels have low octane numbers, and vice versa."
It also has a chart that may help you better understand.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7292781/Differences-Between-Octane-Number-and-Cetane-Number

And of course there's always Wikipedia (if your into that) and a chart showing the octane values of many fuels, it shows diesel fuel at 15-25 octane (RON)... but you'll find dozens more references at the end to get you started on the correct track...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

Happy reading
*

 

[firebrick43]

I can't believe I am going to say this( oh it's so hard!!) but whitespider is right on octane and diesel fuel.

Also SB47 you stated
"Lead is an additive that is a lubricant that is added to fuel. People don't know that unleaded fuel is actually cheaper to make (but they charge more) (scam!) because they don't have to add the lead".

What the hell is that nonsense?? They have not put lead in since the 80's. (Except aviation fuel and very small amounts of "off road fuel). And completely banned (except aviation) in 1995. So where are they charge more for unleaded fuel than leaded?????? They took it out because of catalytic convertors, lead destroys them and health reasons.

And further more when you state "Low compression motors with 11:0 to 1 or less, can run on low octane gas" you really need to define low octane. 91 octane is high to millions of people because if it's not sold at the pump the it's not in exsistance. Most high performance engines are at max 11 to 1 as that is the limits of pump gas. Low octane to me and a hundred million other drivers is 87. Race gas is only on the radars of a fraction of a percent of Americans.

 

[sb47]

Well I hate to say it but as far as diesel goes he is write. I did use diesel in a reference when I was trying to make a point. And that was my bad. However I am correct about gas. But I swear that guy is the most annoying person on this site. He finds the most insignificant part of something someone says starts in and never lets it go. I hate to admit it but he is the mane reason I quit posting. Apparently he dosn't have a real life, he has a cyber life because he's always here and never seems to go away.
Congratulations (whitespider) your such an annoying ass you are driving people away from the site.
I'm going to try to use the ignore function and see if that helps.

 

[sb47]

Well I hate to say it but as far as diesel goes he is write. I did use diesel in a reference when I was trying to make a point. And that was my bad. However I am correct about gas. But I swear that guy is the most annoying person on this site. He finds the most insignificant part of something someone says starts in and never lets it go. I hate to admit it but he is the mane reason I quit posting. Apparently he dosn't have a real life, he has a cyber life because he's always here and never seems to go away.
Congratulations (whitespider) your such an annoying ass you are driving people away from the site.
I'm going to try to use the ignore function and see if that helps.

 

[Whitespider]

Well sb47, if'n you're gonna' use the ignore function anyway, I'll go ahead and point out another glaring error in your assumptions.
Lead was not added to gasoline a a lubricant, that was simply a side benefit no one thought much about until it was eliminated... it was added to gasoline as a cheap and highly efficient way to raise the octane rating. And in a purely performance spectrum... it's still one of the best ways.

This thread was about two-cycle chainsaw engines...
You stated that one reason two-cycle engines run a higher compression is because adding two-cycle oil to gasoline raises the octane... if you wouldn't have posted that glaringly poor information (certainly not, as you say, "insignificant") I would have let you babble on. But it does show your understanding of octane function is only partial, and much is based in false assumption.
*

 

[Whitespider]

Is this an alternative solution?
http://goldwingdocs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=14679
Taking out the e-10 yourself?

Keep in mind that removing the ethanol from E10 leaves you with a fuel approximately 2-4 points lower in octane (depending on the actual beginning octane rating).
If you remove all(?) the ethanol from, say 87 octane E10, you end up with E-free gasoline but the octane rating will be somewhere in the 84-85 range... removing ethanol from E15 would lower the octane rating even more. The biggest problem with removing the ethanol using "home" methods is you have no way of knowing what other additives you may remove with it, you have no way of knowing what you have in the end... basically, you have zero quality control of the end product.
*

 

[Topbuilder]

Keep in mind that removing the ethanol from E10 leaves you with a fuel approximately 2-4 points lower in octane (depending on the actual beginning octane rating).
If you remove all(?) the ethanol from, say 87 octane E10, you end up with E-free gasoline but the octane rating will be somewhere in the 84-85 range... removing ethanol from E15 would lower the octane rating even more. The biggest problem with removing the ethanol using "home" methods is you have no way of knowing what other additives you may remove with it, you have no way of knowing what you have in the end... basically, you have zero quality control of the end product.
*

OK. I knew I would have to start with the highest octane fuel I could get at the pump. Had not considered what else the water would remove. I'm in a desert when it comes to buying gas less E10. Best I can do is 87 octane at a boat launch about 40 miles away. That will still beat buying premix at $25 gal + freight. I have used the ethanol for years not really knowing there was this problem. I just replaced the fuel lines for the second time on the 455R and have a backpack blower waiting for my attention... I want to get this figured out before I get my 562XP.

 

[Marshy]

The pinging is caused by pre ignition. Pre ignition can be caused by several things. One being the timing being set wrong. The other is the fuel is being ignited before the piston reaches top dead center.
By the time the air fuel mixture reaches the combustion chamber the fuel is mostly atomized and in a vapor form.

Auto ignition is the result of compression. When you compress an air fuel mixture to a certen point, the pressure alone creates heat and makes the air fuel mixture ignite. This is very similar to pre ignition.

High octane fuels help by being harder to ignite from high pressures in the combustion chamber.

Also carbon build up on the valves and in the combustion chamber can stay hot and cause per ignition.

When the fuel ignites before top dead center, you have the force of the mass of the motor wanting to move forward. But if the fuel ignites before top dead center, it wants to force the motor backwards.
But the centrifugal force of the turning mass will force the motor forward. This is where the pinging is coming from.

IMO Your concepts of per-ignition and detonation and even internal combustion seem a little retarded (pun intended). Ignition timing always occurs some time BTDC in gas engines. I dont know any that occur after TDC. If tuned properly, peak cylinder pressure should occur at about 14* ATDC.

There is a lot of confusion and misconception as to detonation and pre-ignition. Detonation and pre-ignition are both a phenomenon that is abnormal combustion. The two are somewhat related but are two distinctly different phenomenon.

Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of the end-gas (remaining fuel/air mixture) in the chamber. It always occurs after normal combustion is initiated by the spark plug. The initial combustion at the spark plug is followed by a normal combustion burn. For reasons likely due to heat and pressure, the end gas in the chamber spontaneously combusts (i.e. abnormal flame front propagation and collision of pressure waves in the combustion chamber). The key point here is that detonation occurs after you have initiated the normal combustion with the spark plug.

Pre-ignition is defined as the ignition of the mixture prior to the spark plug firing. Anytime something causes the mixture in the chamber to ignite prior to the spark plug event it is classified as pre-ignition. The two are completely different and abnormal phenomenon.

One thing to understand is that detonation is not necessarily destructive. Many engines run under light levels of detonation, even moderate levels. Some engines can sustain very long periods of heavy detonation without incurring any damage. If you've driven a car that has a lot of spark advance on the freeway, you'll hear it pinging. It can run that way for thousands and thousands of miles. Detonation is not necessarily destructive. It's not an optimum situation but it is not a guaranteed instant failure.

With pre-ignition, the ignition of the charge happens ahead of the spark plug firing. If it occurs slightly ABDC there is no very rapid pressure spike like with detonation. Instead, it is a tremendous amount of pressure which is present for a very long dwell time, i.e., the entire compression stroke puts large loads on internal parts. There is no sharp pressure spike to resonate the engine to cause any noise. So you never hear it, the engine just blows up! That's why pre-ignition is so insidious. It is hardly detectable before it occurs. When it occurs you only know about it after the fact. It causes a catastrophic failure very quickly because the heat and pressures are so intense. The result can be bend rods, cracked piston/rings and even holes in pistons.