question on tree falling
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AKDriveSprocket
ArboristSite Guru
Barber chair on the first one and the bottom one may sheer the wood on the bottom and fall backwards.
redprospector
Addicted to ArboristSite
can you notch a tree and have it go 50 % into the tree like so
if not why not?
i was also curious if you or have known people cut a tree down like this
There are certain situations where notching a tree 1/2 way or a little more is helpfull, but very few. Such as a big solid snag with no top in it. Cutting 1/2 way will help "over balance" the stem, where a 1/3 notch would be very difficult to lift with wedges. These are best left to someone with lots of experience.
Your second illustration is not acceptable in any situation.
Andy
injun joe
ArboristSite Operative
could you explain the terminoligy better i dont understand those fancy falling words.
the second one i will admit i have used a few times on those trees with an EXTREME lean.
Nothing wrong with the first one, people who say so dont know what they are talking about.
the latter is a perfect example of what not to do, unless you have a specific application like small trees with no need for direction control..
If the tree had enough back lean, itd likely peel off the stump and come for you!
the latter is a perfect example of what not to do, unless you have a specific application like small trees with no need for direction control..
If the tree had enough back lean, itd likely peel off the stump and come for you!
jburlingham
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The first may work, I prefer my notch less then 50%, as for the second, Bad Idea, no control on direction (including landing on you) and it leaves a pungy stick for a stump.
What about control?
I'm not the most experienced feller here, but wouldn't the deep 50% notch also make it more difficult to make a deep enough backcut to get a wedge in behind the saw on some trees? On a tree that has even a slight lean toward the backcut (or even no lean with a little wind toward the backcut), the holding wood may pull or even break completely before you get a wedge in there. Not safe.
And yes, I've used deeper notches, but only rarely when the situation calls for it.
I'm not the most experienced feller here, but wouldn't the deep 50% notch also make it more difficult to make a deep enough backcut to get a wedge in behind the saw on some trees? On a tree that has even a slight lean toward the backcut (or even no lean with a little wind toward the backcut), the holding wood may pull or even break completely before you get a wedge in there. Not safe.
And yes, I've used deeper notches, but only rarely when the situation calls for it.
bitzer
******** Timber Expert
The first one can be a nessecity on trees that are over balanced, which can happens in some ugly hardwoods. I mean the crown is sprawling in every direction and you have to pick a favorable lean. Usually the tree is big enough to get a wedge in and you leave more hinge like 2 or 3" instead of
1-2". I have not broken a hinge with a face cut halfway in. Unless the tree is small, always use a face cut. I know guys who have done the second one and have had barber chairs. They were too lazy to put a face in and thought they would "bring it down slow and easy" just foolishness.
I forgot to mention, when I do use the 1/2 way in notch I am often boring the tree for the back cut, leaving a backstrap (holding wood at the back), and pounding wedges on each side of the bore cut until I can't anymore. Then cut the back strap and it'll fly. When you bore the back cut on this you can also leave the size hinge you want more easliy and there is much less chance for barber chairing as long as you leave enough holding wood (backstrap) maybe 2" or so.
1-2". I have not broken a hinge with a face cut halfway in. Unless the tree is small, always use a face cut. I know guys who have done the second one and have had barber chairs. They were too lazy to put a face in and thought they would "bring it down slow and easy" just foolishness.
I forgot to mention, when I do use the 1/2 way in notch I am often boring the tree for the back cut, leaving a backstrap (holding wood at the back), and pounding wedges on each side of the bore cut until I can't anymore. Then cut the back strap and it'll fly. When you bore the back cut on this you can also leave the size hinge you want more easliy and there is much less chance for barber chairing as long as you leave enough holding wood (backstrap) maybe 2" or so.
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could you explain the terminoligy better i dont understand those fancy falling words.
Here's an example of a "barber chair" Can't embed this one as it is "turned off by request"...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YAf61zz5VU
I use the second one to get sapling sized and smaller on the ground. That's about all you want to use it for, although I have also dumped lodgepole on the ground that way--using a bowbar and pushing with a free hand. Lodgepole not bigger than 6 inches that is. There are quite a few discussions on falling, including this on the forestry/logging forum. Pages and pages. You'll find barberchairs, swarps, dutchmen, etc. there. Go forth and search.....and read a few books.
kkesler
ArboristSite Operative
I've seen stumps 12" or bigger similar to number 2 several times, and have never understood what someone was doing.
Bounty Hunter
Addicted to ArboristSite
WOW 1947wdx...that was an awesome video...that was the worst barberchair I have seen since Henry Stamper got mashed in "Sometimes a great notion" :jawdrop:
Bounty Hunter
Bounty Hunter
There's an entire thread on here about that one video... I just wanted to show the OP what it looked like, and why it's not a good thing... Thankfully I've never been in that position!
bitzer
******** Timber Expert
That was a hell of a barber chair! That tree didn't have that much lean, but then again you can't see it all. Crazy.
Like red said big solid snags respond well to a 50% notch. The snag has to be big enough in diameter that you can stll drive in wedges in the backcut. It will take a long time to make that deep of a face cut but the results are worth it.
Under normal cicumstances the hinge should be well forward of 50%. 25% in big trees 30% on normal size trees. The deeper the face cut the more difficult it is to drive the tree with wedges and the more that tree will move with the wind. You risk a barberchair with too deep of a notch and a little wind. BTW that notch you drew is upside down. (JK)
The second is sometimes called a salami cut. It works well for small trees up to 6" or so where the direction you want the tree to go is straight down off the stump. I use this most often where there are many trees in a clump or row like thinning along a river. I reach in with my saw and do the salami cut on the tree to be thinned and then lift the butt and pull it out. Often the cut is made as high as you can reach to allow the tree to drop but still be supported by the other trees in the clump.
The other time the slami cut (aka diagonal cut) is used is with a hung up tree. In this case many salami cuts are used (2'-4' lengths) are used to reduce the height of the tree until it falls free. You have to be very careful and light on your feet but it works well.
Under normal cicumstances the hinge should be well forward of 50%. 25% in big trees 30% on normal size trees. The deeper the face cut the more difficult it is to drive the tree with wedges and the more that tree will move with the wind. You risk a barberchair with too deep of a notch and a little wind. BTW that notch you drew is upside down. (JK)
The second is sometimes called a salami cut. It works well for small trees up to 6" or so where the direction you want the tree to go is straight down off the stump. I use this most often where there are many trees in a clump or row like thinning along a river. I reach in with my saw and do the salami cut on the tree to be thinned and then lift the butt and pull it out. Often the cut is made as high as you can reach to allow the tree to drop but still be supported by the other trees in the clump.
The other time the slami cut (aka diagonal cut) is used is with a hung up tree. In this case many salami cuts are used (2'-4' lengths) are used to reduce the height of the tree until it falls free. You have to be very careful and light on your feet but it works well.
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parrisw
Tree Freak
That's a good vid. If the guy got his back cut in fast it might not have happened. He stopped cutting, I think that's why it baberchaired.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
another example
"The first one can be a nessecity on trees that are over balanced"
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Another example of an overbalance tree would be a larger diameter (say 50"+) where the top has broken off and it is only 40 feet tall.
The best and most common advice for these guys is cut the flat of the face until you just start to feel the bar pinch.
I'm not saying open face doesn't work in its setting but trying a small shallow face on one of these would be good enough to cause loggers familiar with them to laugh for months.
There is a reason for the deep face.
You're moving the fulcrum to help with the fall.
Can mean less wedging.
"The first one can be a nessecity on trees that are over balanced"
===========
Another example of an overbalance tree would be a larger diameter (say 50"+) where the top has broken off and it is only 40 feet tall.
The best and most common advice for these guys is cut the flat of the face until you just start to feel the bar pinch.
I'm not saying open face doesn't work in its setting but trying a small shallow face on one of these would be good enough to cause loggers familiar with them to laugh for months.
There is a reason for the deep face.
You're moving the fulcrum to help with the fall.
Can mean less wedging.
parrisw
Tree Freak
Or what happens if you have to fall a big Cedar that is rotten in the middle? Can you go farther in on the face looking for better holding wood?
