Premix fuel OK to use?

[OM617YOTA]

I'm one of those homeowners who only runs a saw a few hours a year. I could probably run TCW3 marine oil, and get acceptable life out of my equipment.

Ignoring that, Stihl Ultra still smells like a meth house on fire, costs more than objectively better oils, and is less common and harder to get than objectively better oils. Stihl Ultra is Stihl dealer only, but I can find an FD oil at any hardware store, any home improvement store, nearly any auto parts store, Walmart, a thousand places online, any farm store.......


.......and any saw dealer, EXCEPT a Stihl dealer.

 

[bwalker]

What is it specifically that makes anshless oils so dirty?

There are two ways that two cycle oils are formulated. Marine oils are ashless and use a nitrogen/amine based dispersent for a cleanliness additive. Air cooled oils on the other hand use a mettalic based calcium or magnesium sulfanate detergent for cleanliness.
Ashless dispersents do not function above a ring belt temperature of a few hundred degrees and cause all sorts of deposit issues in air cooled or high output liquid cooled motors.
In addition the latest standard for air cooled oils, JASO FD doesn't have a single oil on the list containing ash. Conversely latest marine oil standard, TCW3 doesn't have a single oil containing ash on the list and in fact oils must be ashless to be certified.
Make sense?

 

[bwalker]

Them saws look like they have actually been used more than an hr.
Yeah IDK sure it's dirty looking crap but I'm not seeing anything that will drastically end the saws life prematurely what am I missing??
I mean they aren't pampered cleaned with cotton buds kind of looking saws. Pistons still have machine marks I didn't really get a good look at the load side of piston, the rings don't look gummed up and doesn't seem to be any metal to metal contact going, yeah a little carbon smearing pitting above the rings on exhaust side but meh is nothing for well used saws. Did he show the exhaust port was it blocked or anything? I kind of skipped through the vids. The bottom ends haven't flown to bits yet from what I could gather.

A home owner could run their saws for 25 plus years on that dirty crap and never know any difference lol
I think it's a lot of noise about not much really a dirty stained piston is all I'm seeing like I said what am I missing in the above saws?
I better add no I'm not saying it's a great oil just I don't think anyone will be blowing their saws up overnight running it.

Once you start to build carbon on the piston skirt and ring grooves ring mobility decreases which causes wear and more blowby, which causes more carbon buildup and less ring mobility. Sooner or latter the saw loses compression, but leading up to that point ita making less power which only gets worse with time. It can also cause a stuck ring which can cause a catastrophic failure.

 

[muddy42]

Amazing.

There are two ways that two cycle oils are formulated. Marine oils are ashless and use a nitrogen/amine based dispersent for a cleanliness additive. Air cooled oils on the other hand use a mettalic based calcium or magnesium sulfanate detergent for cleanliness.
Ashless dispersents do not function above a ring belt temperature of a few hundred degrees and cause all sorts of deposit issues in air cooled or high output liquid cooled motors.
In addition the latest standard for air cooled oils, JASO FD doesn't have a single oil on the list containing ash. Conversely latest marine oil standard, TCW3 doesn't have a single oil containing ash on the list and in fact oils must be ashless to be certified.
Make sense?

and i understand the reasoning behind the difference is marine exhaust ends up in the water. If you used standard two stroke oil here (even though more effective) you would kill fish and bugs.

Is that correct?

 

[Ocala]

Wow this thread has wings

I picked up some 91 octane ethanol free yesterday along with some oil to add to it.

I think I’ll use that while I’m in the heavy cutting stage of my life with the 6 big water oaks that remain in my yard. They’re each 50’ to 60’ tall and generally about 30” to 36” at the base, so that’ll take care of my free time over the summer at least.

After that I’ll probably return to keeping a few cans of premix handy.

I have a backpack blower and string trimmer that I use at least once a week. I always have ethanol free Jerry cans at my house, so mixing a little in a small container for a saw is no big deal, especially because I was adding oil to the premix anyway to bring it up to 40:1.

Thanks again for all the advice. Amazing level of knowledge here!

 

[bwalker]

Amazing.

and i understand the reasoning behind the difference is marine exhaust ends up in the water. If you used standard two stroke oil here (even though more effective) you would kill fish and bugs.

Is that correct?

No, that's not correct. It has to do with how a marine engine is operated. Any motor that operates at steady throttle works best with ashless oils. If you run one of these engines with an oil contain ash it causes mettalic buildup on the pistons which can cause pre ignition.

 

[rogue60]

Once you start to build carbon on the piston skirt and ring grooves ring mobility decreases which causes wear and more blowby, which causes more carbon buildup and less ring mobility. Sooner or latter the saw loses compression, but leading up to that point ita making less power which only gets worse with time. It can also cause a stuck ring which can cause a catastrophic failure.

Yeah I know all that was talking specifically about the saw in the vids the rings don't look gummed up and stuck they look fine for a well used saw. I'd like to see is the rings pulled to see If there was any carbon building up behind them. If there's no carbon buildup behind the rings that saw isn’t failing anytime soon.

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

Them saws look like they have actually been used more than an hr.
Yeah IDK sure it's dirty looking crap but I'm not seeing anything that will drastically end the saws life prematurely what am I missing??
I mean they aren't pampered cleaned with cotton buds kind of looking saws. Pistons still have machine marks I didn't really get a good look at the load side of piston, the rings don't look gummed up and doesn't seem to be any metal to metal contact going, yeah a little carbon smearing pitting above the rings on exhaust side but meh is nothing for well used saws. Did he show the exhaust port was it blocked or anything? I kind of skipped through the vids. The bottom ends haven't flown to bits yet from what I could gather.

A home owner could run their saws for 25 plus years on that dirty crap and never know any difference lol
I think it's a lot of noise about not much really a dirty stained piston is all I'm seeing like I said what am I missing in the above saws?
I better add no I'm not saying it's a great oil just I don't think anyone will be blowing their saws up overnight running it.

I’m really not too sure honestly. I suppose, because there are oils that are cheaper and run much cleaner there is no need to run a more expensive yet dirty oil. If it was very cheap and gave those results we’d say, well it’s a cheap basic oil, it gets you by. Though for $40 per L I’d want better results personally.

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

There are two ways that two cycle oils are formulated. Marine oils are ashless and use a nitrogen/amine based dispersent for a cleanliness additive. Air cooled oils on the other hand use a mettalic based calcium or magnesium sulfanate detergent for cleanliness.
Ashless dispersents do not function above a ring belt temperature of a few hundred degrees and cause all sorts of deposit issues in air cooled or high output liquid cooled motors.
In addition the latest standard for air cooled oils, JASO FD doesn't have a single oil on the list containing ash. Conversely latest marine oil standard, TCW3 doesn't have a single oil containing ash on the list and in fact oils must be ashless to be certified.
Make sense?

Very interesting, so what is your preference of oil in air cooled 2 stroke engines? Will you run a different oil in a saw vs say a weed eater? They seem to operate at quite a few thousand rpm different and load is more in the saws.

 

[rogue60]

I’m really not too sure honestly. I suppose, because there are oils that are cheaper and run much cleaner there is no need to run a more expensive yet dirty oil. If it was very cheap and gave those results we’d say, well it’s a cheap basic oil, it gets you by. Though for $40 per L I’d want better results personally.

I meant the saws in the vids what am I missing as far as seeing any damage apart from how dirty burning that oil is.
Again I'm not saying it's a good oil there is a lot better oils and cheaper to run in saws than Ultra just in them vids nothing major bad is going on that I can see.
From what I could work out he is now running a different oil through the saw and its cleaning all the staining and crap up so when it's done cleaning nobody would ever even know it was run on Ultra as in no permanent damage from what I could tell.
And as for 50:1 not just Ultra giving less service life out of the bottom end thats a give in it's true but good luck convincing the consumer zombies of that lol

 

[aokpops]

I bought Shell V power for my saws for decades. Ran saber oil 80 to 1 about ten years now . This spring the Lawnboy push mower 2 cycle started 1 pull the 20 year old Husqvarna string trimmer started 1 pull. Never drained the fuel from last year. The question. Why change ?

 

[Husky77]

I bought Shell V power for my saws for decades. Ran saber oil 80 to 1 about ten years now . This spring the Lawnboy push mower 2 cycle started 1 pull the 20 year old Husqvarna string trimmer started 1 pull. Never drained the fuel from last year. The question. Why change ?

I must be doing something wrong, and everyone I know with saws. Because I never had a two stroke that was start first pull, most of mine are 3-4 pulls, it pops, choke off next put and it's running. That's been the normal for me for ever (40+ years).
4-mix on the other hand always starts first pull but is always rich as does briggs &s mower engines.
We wont have to worry about puls for much longer, when AI takes over we can sit back and watch

 

[ammoaddict]

I must be doing something wrong, and everyone I know with saws. Because I never had a two stroke that was start first pull, most of mine are 3-4 pulls, it pops, choke off next put and it's running. That's been the normal for me for ever (40+ years).
4-mix on the other hand always starts first pull but is always rich as does briggs &s mower engines.
We wont have to worry about puls for much longer, when AI takes over we can sit back and watch

I've never had a cold saw start on one pull. Like you saw 3-4. Rarely 2 if you get the choke off quick enough. My autotune saw 10-20 if it's been sitting for months.

 

[bwalker]

Yeah I know all that was talking specifically about the saw in the vids the rings don't look gummed up and stuck they look fine for a well used saw. I'd like to see is the rings pulled to see If there was any carbon building up behind them. If there's no carbon buildup behind the rings that saw isn’t failing anytime soon.

In time they will be.

 

[bwalker]

Very interesting, so what is your preference of oil in air cooled 2 stroke engines? Will you run a different oil in a saw vs say a weed eater? They seem to operate at quite a few thousand rpm different and load is more in the saws.

Any FC/FD CERTIFIED oil will work just fine.

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

Any FC/FD CERTIFIED oil will work just fine.

Oil prices are going up at crazy rates around me, fill synthetic is around $35 - $40+ a L. I go through a fair amount too. On the plus side, I found a discount on a 4L container of Castrol activ 2t that is JASO FC certified. Rogues recommendation. At $11 a L on discount I jumped at the chance.

 

[bwalker]

Oil prices are going up at crazy rates around me, fill synthetic is around $35 - $40+ a L. I go through a fair amount too. On the plus side, I found a discount on a 4L container of Castrol activ 2t that is JASO FC certified. Rogues recommendation. At $11 a L on discount I jumped at the chance.

JASO FC is very good as well and many times better than FB.

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

JASO FC is very good as well and many times better than FB.

I have noticed the Castrol Activ state on their website it’s JASO FD spec, but when you search the JASO list, it’s FC. Can mineral oil actually be a true FD?

 

[teacherman]

It's not opinion. ULTRA is actually a FB rated oil which means it has been tested to that standard. It's a fact FB is a early 80's standard. It's a fact that it's an ashless oil and is formulated like a marine oil. It's a fact ashless oils don't have any detergents and it's also a fact that the dispersents used instead do not work at the ring belt temps an air cooled saw can reach.
You have been lead to water.

OK. I've read enough to be interested. I have always used Stihl Ultra with premium no E fuel, but for storage I now use the Stihl premix. Just because they are Stihl. Is there a higher lubrication spec for 2 stroke oil than JASO FB, because what little I read said it had to do with detergency, and what are some oils that perform better? I am willing to try something different. A dealer once recommended this stuff called Omni, or something like that, but that place was pretty flaky, in my opinion. This was when I had a lawn business in the 1990s. Now I just climb my own trees and manage a tiny bit of forest in my back yard, full of 80 foot chestnut oaks spaced too closely together, thus the height.
I also have a 4 mix string trimmer and a concrete saw and a hedge trimmer, all Stihl.

This would make it an oil thread for sure, but what is a known top of the line 2 stroke oil suitable for Stihl saws from the 1990s?

 

[OM617YOTA]

OK. I've read enough to be interested. I have always used Stihl Ultra with premium no E fuel, but for storage I now use the Stihl premix. Just because they are Stihl. Is there a higher lubrication spec for 2 stroke oil than JASO FB, because what little I read said it had to do with detergency, and what are some oils that perform better? I am willing to try something different. A dealer once recommended this stuff called Omni, or something like that, but that place was pretty flaky, in my opinion. This was when I had a lawn business in the 1990s. Now I just climb my own trees and manage a tiny bit of forest in my back yard, full of 80 foot chestnut oaks spaced too closely together, thus the height.
I also have a 4 mix string trimmer and a concrete saw and a hedge trimmer, all Stihl.

This would make it an oil thread for sure, but what is a known top of the line 2 stroke oil suitable for Stihl saws from the 1990s?

https://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/2T_EV_LIST.pdf
That's the official JASO list.

LOTS of options that are higher quality than Stihl Ultra. Keep the list on your phone and take a look when you go shopping. Regardless of what oil you run, make sure you know how to tune your saw.

This time I noticed a couple FD rated sea and snow oils. Going to look into those some more.