441 stihl opinion

[THALL10326]

One other hting. if you dont think E commerce is the wave of the future you have your head in the sand. Stihl will eventually be forced to compete in this area and the Ludite stihl dealers will be left holding the bag.

Aswering both of your two last posts. First off not everyone knows how to service their own saws Ben, I guess if they need a service after buying off the net they can come visit you. You don't care how they sell their saws because like you say, you can service your own. Secondly all those saws sold off the net are not POS's nor are the ones at Lowes and Sears. If they are as you say they are, then Husky sells more POS than they do good saws according to your way of thinking. No way any dealer can match the buying power of Lowes and Sears nor the selling power. They have more walk in customers in a day than dealers have in a year or two, Husky knows that and thats why they are in there.

As for Stihl let me pull your head up out of the sand. The rep was in last week and this very subject came up. He said Stihl had already looked at the possibles of going box store. They esitmated a 40% increase of total sales of overall but guess what. He said they decided they didn't need it nor wanted to screw their dealer network over. So there you have the facts. Now who is the spade to their dealers.

 

[spacemule]

There is no problem with it, but it is not toy airplane technology, if for a second you think that they haven't thought of it built it and it is collecting dust somewhere at Stihl your behind the times. In fact it has been mentioned many times before here.

There is a very good chance that the carb Lake mentioned will have processor / power module running off of a coil in the flywheel, an O2 , cylinder temp. ambient air temp, barometric pressure (after the filter), crankcase pressure, engine speed and low fuel sensors, all wighting just a few ounces.

If my cristial ball is not to foggy today, it is my guess that there going to meter the carbs fuel via back pressure on the primary (fuel pump) diaphragm, no?

Edit: shooting from the hip, and got me foot,,,,, the back pressure would need to be on the secondary diaphragm, back pressure to rich, pressure to lean.

Toy airplane is a bit of a misnomer. Just as much money and effort are spent on model plane stuff as on saws. In fact, the model turbines can cost tens of thousands of dollars. But that's beside the point.

If you have all the sensory inputs you're describing, why keep the carb? A fuel injector is the logical step from the progression of engine speed, case pressure, o2, ambient temp, etc. etc. Is it not?

 

[Lakeside53]

Here's the full image in case you want it.

I just had that special little shiver....

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

Here's the full image in case you want it.

Self portrait, Space?

 

[Lakeside53]

There is a very good chance that the carb Lake mentioned will have processor / power module running off of a coil in the flywheel, an O2 , cylinder temp. ambient air temp, barometric pressure (after the filter), crankcase pressure, engine speed and low fuel sensors, all wighting just a few ounces.

.

That will come in spring of 2025, but maybe we'll all get direct injection by 2018 instead. The direct injection will be called the "space-spit" system, after its late inventor (no one is ever really famous until after passing!) Just kidding spacey.:biggrinbounce2:


Damn EPA. I'm mothballing a bunch of 361 though 880 in nitrogen chambers - I figure my retirement will be truly golden.

Back to reality..

The first change is much much simpler - a solenoid to stop fuel flow when certain conditions are met by timing and the venturi. For example, among other things, you can stop carb spitback....


You'll see it on MS280 next year... together with a fancy 4 pole ignition.

I don't know much else... but I'm glad you are enjoying the discussion.

 

[Lakeside53]

Psssst..try to tell that to a dealer...:deadhorse:

Anything with STIHL EASY START is POS!!! I'm not too keen on the 192T either, but when I say that I piss off all the owners, so maybe I'm wrong... Now I confused myself again...

 

[ShoerFast]

Toy airplane is a bit of a misnomer. Just as much money and effort are spent on model plane stuff as on saws. In fact, the model turbines can cost tens of thousands of dollars. But that's beside the point.

If you have all the sensory inputs you're describing, why keep the carb? A fuel injector is the logical step from the progression of engine speed, case pressure, o2, ambient temp, etc. etc. Is it not?

Yes it is, and the way it usually works, Stihl has a contract to sell the carbs there using on there saws for how long? The first basic makeovers are not always from the ground up, the cylinders and air boxes, throttle linkage is designed for saw as you see them. the cheapest conversion would be to modify the existing models, the currant E-saws are running carbs, simply making them a feed-back design by tailoring the secondary diaphragms would be a side step, you still have to hang a price tag on them.

As I said, we seen this before!

 

[sawinredneck]

Service isnt of any use to me as I service my own saws. A chain saw is a very simple device.
I would also question the sanity of a delaer turning away service work as thats where they butter their bread.

Again, I will repeat this!! DEALERS GET PAID FLAT RATE TO FIX THE PROBLEM, NO DIAGNOSIS TIME IS INCLUDED!!! I don't know, maybe Lake can, but I cannot bring in a piece of equipment and know fully well what is wrong with it in less than five minute each and everytime! I WILL NOT PRETEND TO BE CLOSE TO THAT GOOD!! I went through this crap when JD started selling to HD, we lost our butts so bad we turned the weedeaters away, just wouldn't touch them, our dealership didn't even carry them to start with, they were junk!! Want a real one, buy a Shinny from us and get warranty. Want junk, buy one from HD and have a nice day, but don't bring it to us. We were the ones tat HD told them to see even.
Then they came out with the L-series mowers, more junk, we couldn't turn them away without loosing JD entirely, or we would have. The safty system is all off of grounding, it's all backwards a real bear to diagnos, spend four hours to find out that a $10 part was bad, and get paid $25 for labor. Who's getting rich? What butter? That is total BS, there is no money in waranty work!!!
Andy

 

[spacemule]

Yes it is, and the way it usually works, Stihl has a contract to sell the carbs there using on there saws for how long? The first basic makeovers are not always from the ground up, the cylinders and air boxes, throttle linkage is designed for saw as you see them. the cheapest conversion would be to modify the existing models, the currant E-saws are running carbs, simply making them a feed-back design by tailoring the secondary diaphragms would be a side step, you still have to hang a price tag on them.

As I said, we seen this before!

So it's a logistics problem, eh?

 

[sawinredneck]

Anything with STIHL EASY START is POS!!! I'm not too keen on the 192T either, but when I say that I piss off all the owners, so maybe I'm wrong... Now I confused myself again...

turning into a post whore again

The 192t may very well be a POS, but it's the best POS in that price range! And I love mine.
Andy

 

[04ultra]

turning into a post whore again

The 192t may very well be a POS, but it's the best POS in that price range! And I love mine.
Andy

That pumpkin loved it too...


..

 

[sawinredneck]

That pumpkin loved it too...


..

Yep, seems to make a decent carving saw as well :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[Lakeside53]

Again, I will repeat this!! DEALERS GET PAID FLAT RATE TO FIX THE PROBLEM, NO DIAGNOSIS TIME IS INCLUDED!!! I don't know, maybe Lake can, but I cannot bring in a piece of equipment and know fully well what is wrong with it in less than five minute each and everytime! I WILL NOT PRETEND TO BE CLOSE TO THAT GOOD!! I went through this crap when JD started selling to HD, we lost our butts so bad we turned the weedeaters away, just wouldn't touch them, our dealership didn't even carry them to start with, they were junk!! Want a real one, buy a Shinny from us and get warranty. Want junk, buy one from HD and have a nice day, but don't bring it to us. We were the ones tat HD told them to see even.
Then they came out with the L-series mowers, more junk, we couldn't turn them away without loosing JD entirely, or we would have. The safty system is all off of grounding, it's all backwards a real bear to diagnos, spend four hours to find out that a $10 part was bad, and get paid $25 for labor. Who's getting rich? What butter? That is total BS, there is no money in waranty work!!!
Andy

Yes... warranty work sucks.., and we would go broke if that was what we had to live off. Luckily we get so little of it it doesn't matter... In fairness to Ben, I don't think he was ONLY referring to warranty work - but the bigger picture of service. Conversely, when the homeowner pays $99 for a POS saw at a box store, and the next season (bad fuel by now) brings it to us, we just tell them - sorry, Stihl only. They look bewildered and say with a stammer...but but Lowes wants to ship it to another town (Tacoma in our case) and they want a credit card number... and Sharp Shop (another repair shop) says it will cost about $80 for a carb overhaul... Some percentage of them buy a saw from us but most leave mad at all chainsaws.

 

[Lakeside53]

turning into a post whore again

The 192t may very well be a POS, but it's the best POS in that price range! And I love mine.
Andy

SEE:biggrinbounce2:

 

[SawTroll]

Is this "Da Prince" part II????:bang: :bang:

A little premature, I would say....

 

[manual]

So why haven't we seen any threads about how good it is? I'm sure someone has to like it in stock form.

That's my point precisely.

Because Husky owners don't need a pat on the back or a Rah Rah crowd to insure them they made the right choice.
THEY JUST GET- ER- DONE.

The 575 runs just like the 441 why wouldn't ? Where do you think Stihl got there prototype. HAHAHAHAHAHAha

P.S. Go do a search...

 

[Lakeside53]

Because Husky owners don't need a pat on the back or a Rah Rah crowd to insure them they made the right choice.
THEY JUST GET- ER- DONE.

The 575 runs just like the 441 why wouldn't ? Where do you think Stihl got there prototype. HAHAHAHAHAHAha

P.S. Go do a search...

Manual - you're back!!! have fun while the little woman was away?

all jokes aside... just for now..

I've been doing some digging on the 441/575/redmax thing... It look to me like Stihl had the 441 engine finished well before (a year) the 575 was released. Unless there was some serious industrial espionage (either way, or both) it's more of "greater minds" coming up with a similar solution, and the aim being to use stratocharge to meet EPA/EU but make it better (high rpm solution) and non-infringing on anything Redmax did. I'd guess that that Stihl is paying Redmax for the TS700/800 (it's almost the same stratocharge design as Redmax) but that neither Husky or Stihl are paying for the 575 or 441. It's for sure that Husky got a stihl 441 as soon as it became available, and the same for Stihl getting a 575.. haven't heard of any lawsuit between the two yet.

The 575 and 441 implement the piston air-cavity injection in quite different ways.. I haven't seen a 575 cylinder but have been told the "fresh" air is routed to the exhaust side, not the intake side as with the 441. Anyone have a detailed explanation of the 575, or a couple of cylinder pictures?

Some guessing going on but ...

I also dug into the weight issues, and I assume the 575/441 have similar reasons.. It's an accumulation of increases throughout the basic engine. The piston is a lot bulkier and consequently heavier, and this drove the need for stronger (heavier) crankcases and other components... Several components a few ounces more here and there, and you have your overall increase from the 440. One day I'll have one in enough pieces to weigh everything, just for fun..

 

[Lakeside53]

Is this "Da Prince" part II????:bang: :bang:

A little premature, I would say....

Maybe, the Prine is getting way to slow to load... pita.

We may have to count these posts against the Prince so Roland can get his 5000, 5001, 5002...

 

[manual]

Hey Fishhuntcut

We run the 575s every day!! the 372s set home.The 575 has more power and is a lot smoother. But what do we know. You call a spade a spade??? I see you are still in camp terd.HaHaHaHa


Rick

Here you go Fish is that good enough for you.
The 372 kicks but over the 440 "Ever body Knows That" Even you said you would like to get a 372 but would not let your stihl buddies know it. I read that in another site you responded in.

So if Helsel is leaving the 372 at home and using the 575 in place of.
Well take it the bank.

 

[manual]

Manual - you're back!!! have fun while the little woman was away?

all jokes aside... just for now..

I've been doing some digging on the 441/575/redmax thing... It look to me like Stihl had the 441 engine finished well before (a year) the 575 was released. Unless there was some serious industrial espionage (either way, or both) it's more of "greater minds" coming up with a similar solution, and the aim being to use stratocharge to meet EPA/EU but make it better (high rpm solution) and non-infringing on anything Redmax did. I'd guess that that Stihl is paying Redmax for the TS700/800 (it's almost the same stratocharge design as Redmax) but that neither Husky or Stihl are paying for the 575 or 441. It's for sure that Husky got a stihl 441 as soon as it became available, and the same for Stihl getting a 575.. haven't heard of any lawsuit between the two yet.

The 575 and 441 implement the piston air-cavity injection in quite different ways.. I haven't seen a 575 cylinder but have been told the "fresh" air is routed to the exhaust side, not the intake side as with the 441. Anyone have a detailed explanation of the 575, or a couple of cylinder pictures?

Some guessing going on but ...

I also dug into the weight issues, and I assume the 575/441 have similar reasons.. It's an accumulation of increases throughout the basic engine. The piston is a lot bulkier and consequently heavier, and this drove the need for stronger (heavier) crankcases and other components... Several components a few ounces more here and there, and you have your overall increase from the 440. One day I'll have one in enough pieces to weigh everything, just for fun..

The Little woman has been back, This time she gave me a "honey do" list under supervision. Grrrrrrrr

So what took Stihl so long to to market the saw ?
I guess if one wants to make claim for first one out it would be Red max.
Husky design is Different then Stihl of course. "Law suits"
Both are good saws with room for improvements.
to someone not so interested in the mechanics of the saw both saws are the same.
As we learn more here on the site are eyes will open. Good info you gave there. on the freash air intake.
You have me picturing the stroke and the effects on the air intake. Between exhaust vrs intake side. Hmmmmmmm